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Thread: Block - is it any good?

  1. #41
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    I am looking for the truth, and I believe this thread is looking deeper than some may want to look for sure, especially if class A/B is more powerful they aren't gonna come outright and say it to blizz for a nerf. But again there's a fineline to be walked here that will require restraint from our community. If we want to do the math and point out where/when/how a dk wins out then do it. don't say you've done it, don't say from my experiences.

    Get your DK armory, get his skill rotation or his WWS, get your Armory, compare your stats, post it up here, do the maths and see what it comes out to be. Try it with another warrior/dk combo, try it with a pally/warrior combo, try it with a bear/dk combo, etc etc. Once the math comes in there won't be any question about whether this is true or not, and if you can SHOW the math, blizz, myself, ciderhelm, satrina, everyone in the tanking community will listen.

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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    IF block is indeed bad, then if it affects class balance is up to everyone to decide for himself. This thread is about block. Of course some other things may directly result from that, how it could be in any other way, if we're talking about classes balanced around block.

    The math can show the average damage taken, and overall damage taken, but can it show how damage spikes affect healing the tank.

    If you want to close the thread, because it in some way is against your belief that all tank classes are equal, and nothing can be said that would be against this belief, I cannot stop you, but first maybe make sure if you are seeing the truth, or maybe just your opinion is different than mine.
    You need to start reading the posts you're replying to. His point was you need to stay on topic. Tankspot greatly suffers from rambling nonsense and turning threads upside down. If you want to compare the tanking classes yet again and make the point that Sartharion greatly favors 2 of the 4 tanking classes, go for it. Blizzard is aware of it, and has admitted as much.

    I'd be more than happy to discuss the issue with you in another thread, if you think you can stay on topic.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    You need to start reading the posts you're replying to. His point was you need to stay on topic. Tankspot greatly suffers from rambling nonsense and turning threads upside down. If you want to compare the tanking classes yet again and make the point that Sartharion greatly favors 2 of the 4 tanking classes, go for it. Blizzard is aware of it, and has admitted as much.

    I'd be more than happy to discuss the issue with you in another thread, if you think you can stay on topic.
    Hmm, I mention Sartharion because I find it to be a prime example of how balancing tank classes around different stats and forms of mitigation that scale in very different way, some of them being % - based reduction, some of them being flat numbers fails, or will fail soon. It wasn't my intention to mask my true point, or pretend that thread is about something it is not, but I find it hard to talk about something in vacuum, everything that is a direct result of mitigation based, amongst other things, on block in my opinion belongs to the thread.

    My mistake was probably the name of the thread - should be something like "Block and effect it has on the balance between tank classes".

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    My mistake was probably the name of the thread - should be something like "Block and effect it has on the balance between tank classes".
    Your mistake was asking a question and not liking it when we didn't give you the answer you wanted. You already had your mind made up when you came to this thread and you really were just looking for support. That's not discussion.

    Blocking right now isn't super strong b/c it's inconsistent. Once our gear makes it so we're literally always blocking then it's going to become very strong possibly even too good. This is all in relation to the physical elements of the game.

    As to how good we are as Magic tanks, that's a totally different discussion and it's why bringing up stuff like Sartharion is irrelevant to a discussion about the value of block.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    Your mistake was asking a question and not liking it when we didn't give you the answer you wanted. You already had your mind made up when you came to this thread and you really were just looking for support. That's not discussion.
    I disagree. Discussion is only possible when there participants have different opinions. My mind is indeed made up and I said it myself, but I am looking for support OR some different way of looking at things that will change my opinion. Presenting arguments to prove a point, that is a discussion.
    Blocking right now isn't super strong b/c it's inconsistent. Once our gear makes it so we're literally always blocking then it's going to become very strong possibly even too good. This is all in relation to the physical elements of the game.
    I can't see it ever happening. In TBC reaching passive 102,4 was at only possible at the very high cost. Low health, low aggressive stats, low rage. And boss damage output scales better than the amount of blocked damage. So even if it will happen, which I doubt, it will be only a gimmick. I can't see any future in block.
    As to how good we are as Magic tanks, that's a totally different discussion and it's why bringing up stuff like Sartharion is irrelevant to a discussion about the value of block.
    Depends, if tanks are balanced indepently in the aspect of physical damage and magical damage, that indeed it is irrelevant. But if tanks are balanced around their strong and weak points, and block is supposed to be our and paladins edge on melee side, at the cost of being weaker in taking magic damage, than it is not, imho.

  6. #46
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    I don't think being "unhittable" will suddenly put you in a place where you can wear your block suit and be a better Patchwerk hateful tank than someone in stam gear. I definitely think it will be *possible* to get 'block-capped' and perhaps even useful on a few specific encounters, but I don't think hitting that 102.4 will suddenly catapult warrior to the forefront of tanking. Paladins have been there for a while, and assuming their gear is intelligently itemized (e.g. they don't suddenly hit 140.4 because Blizzard keeps piling block rating on their stuff long after they need it), they'll be sporting a *ton* of additional HP/block value/whatever you like that will give them an advantage over warriors.

    I actually think whether block is 'good' or not mostly just depends on encounter design. Stat scaling and itemization obviously make a difference as well, but hit size and attack frequency are really the biggest determinants on whether block ends up being good or not.

    I think for block to be too good, it requires bosses that are a lot like Patchwerk main tanking and Sarth 3D whelps/blazes. Bosses that hit fast but not especially hard (relatively, of course) really maximize blocking mitigation. There is definitely room for challenging fights with this model of tank damage, but I do think it's underutilized right now.

    I think for blocking to be bad, it requires more bosses like Sarth 3D main tanking, Malygos, and Patchwerk hateful tanking. Big hits. Big magical hits are obviously even worse for blocking. I think most of the challenging fights currently fit into this category, and regardless of what you think that means for tank class balance, it's probably worth noting that for some of the hardest progression fights in the game, block is just a really bad choice right now.

    I think for tanking stats to be largely irrelevant, most of the content needs to...well, look like the way it is now. Noth, Heigan, Loatheb, Thaddius, Grobbulus, Gluth, Faerlina, the list goes on and on...all bosses where, honestly, they weren't a tanking survival fight the first time you saw them and they only get easier. There's either so little other damage going around that you're getting a ton of heals, or their attacks are just trivial. You can wear whatever you like here and it's going to have a trivial impact on the fight at best.


    It will be interesting to see which bucket the Ulduar encounters fall into.
    Last edited by Ahti; 01-27-2009 at 02:30 PM.

  7. #47
    As a warrior tank... I have found so far that a Prot tank is still the "Boss Fight" tank. I have stacked block, a little of parry and some dodge in there. I have read the theory behind Dodge vs Block, but then you are circum-navigating the whole aspect of a prot warrior shield using tank. Damage equals RAGE. Nothing like waiting for a boss to hit you so you can hit back. Mean while, your raid slowly dies as he turns on the highest threat one by one.

    I have one DK tank in my guild, i will out threat him on any fight. His gear/rotations are in check. A warriors threat gen with a combination of Vig on the hieghtest dps, your raid can open up on the dps races alot fast and harder!

    DK's make far better OT's IMO due to their many aoe skills. Warriors have one. TC.

    A health balance of each mitigation percentage is good. I am 27B/19P/20D with over 24K armour. Stam gemmed, I have 29500 Hp. So far the content in WOTK has not cause any problems.

    I wouldn't worry about the DPB gear. If you look at the best items on slot for a warrior, you will find that if you equip everything that is out right now at the top, your DPB will be right where it needs to be.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valormanes View Post
    DK's make far better OT's IMO due to their many aoe skills. Warriors have one. TC.
    This confuses me. What does OT-ing and AOE have to do with each other?

    Most people would say DK's are better OT's since they don't actually gain much from being hit (no rage, no spiritual attunement).

    Also, Warriors have more than one AoE ability. TC being the main one, Shockwave is another. And damage shield gives us a chance to keep hold of mobs when both are on cooldown. Cleave isn't true AoE compared to Swipe... but it's something.

  9. #49
    Agreed.... but throw a DK in the mob with you and your TC, shockwave and "damage back" are only going to last 5-10 seconds. I have noticed in 25 man raids, if I am the only tank for the mobs, I have to work 3 times as hard tabing and taunting off DPS dk's due to AOE. This is almost unavoidable since thats they way they where designed.

    Having the DK there, for goes all that. I can focus on the hardest hitting and one other without having to worry about my high dps getting clubbed...

    This will all change as new content comes out. Blizzard in several Blue posts has already made clear that they are going to bring the need for more CC into raids on all aspects. So enjoy the group up and aoe down, now while you still can.

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