+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Death Strike Tanking

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1

    Death Strike Tanking

    Hello,
    I've been tanking as Frost since I have began playing a DK. I have a had a good time with it, however, I am enjoying the new changes to blood and I am going to give it a go. This is the build I was looking at: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    How do you think it would work if use Death Strike instead of Obliterate? I was looking at useing this as my rotation:

    IT>PS>HS>HS>DS etc...

    Just currious what some opinions would be based on this build. I am begining to tank 10 mans and from the looks of the build it seems it would be healer friendly.

    Also what Glyphs do you recomend? I was looking at the Death Strike one but it says 2%? Not sure if thats right or not....

    Armory link-- The World of Warcraft Armory
    Thanks,
    Brut
    Last edited by brutality; 01-23-2009 at 03:07 PM. Reason: Armory Link

  2. #2
    Death Strike is probably fine for guilds that are first getting into Nax. However, after a couple weeks in Nax10, your dps will start to make significant strides to increase their dps. However, tanks won't. Death Strike does very little damage and the threat gained from healing is almost negligable. This means that your dps will have to back off in order for you to hold aggro. I'm not that educated in Blood, but from what I do know, your rotation should include as many heart strikes as possible. This means picking up that pesky little talent that turns frost/unholy runes into death runes. Then your rotation is PS -> IT -> OB (or Death Strike, depending on spec) -> a whole bunch of heart strikes. Since your proposed spec doesn't include Obliterate not wiping out your diseases, you would want to use DS.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    27
    For me this best blood tanking rotation is:

    IT,PS,HS,HS,OB
    IT, PS, HS,HS,HS,HS,OB repeat

    Use DC if you have any spare Runic power.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    2
    The spec I am currently using is, Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and it is working like a charm. Use Death and Decay on cooldown and single target threat is amazing.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7
    *****
    edit: removed origional post as i found the info for the question i was look'n for
    *****

    I found the information on the threat from healing in your guide section. I don't see why using death strike as your main UF attack wouldn't get you good returns as far as threat and survivability. I realize it doesn't do as much dmg as oblit however with the extra threat from the heals (specially as unholy with 3 diseases) I would think just by look'n at the numbers it would come out ahead. I mean at 74 each DS i do heals for 1k to 1.5k with crits getting me 3-4k heals. According the the guide on DK threat that should be a good deal of threat added not to mention lightening the load on your healers. It also appears according to the mechanics in that guide with multiple adds that extra threat is divided between all the mobs so would even be of use in some AoE situations for threat.

    I realize that i'm not 80 and raiding so I might just be missing something and I am willing to admit that however i just don't see how it isn't a good option.
    Last edited by CrimsonHatchet; 01-25-2009 at 06:07 PM.

  6. #6
    In tank gear your crit isn't likely to ever be above 10%, so counting on those is unreliable at best. Then, taking from the threat guide, death strike's healing is the amount healed * .5. Your death strike's will never do all that much damage. So you're going to take the 1-2k threat from damage, and then 1-2k from healing and then half it. So that's 1.5k-3k threat (even less if it's multiple mobs). My SS's do 3.5k-5k damage + an arbitrary value. That's a more than 2k threat per attack difference.

    Now, since your original spec was a blood spec that didn't include not wiping out diseases with OB, then for your one UF rune usage you would use DS. But you only use DS to get rid of those runes and turn them into death runes so you can use HS.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Fonzie, you aren't wrong, I've found that DS will lose out to Oblit or ScS on threat, particularly if you're using the matching glyphs. (I believe the DS glyph is actually a typo, though I haven't taken the time to test it)

    DS is actually VERY useful, particularly for Blood. I go in one of two directions. On one hand, if you talent to Annihilation in Frost (which will hurt you for getting full stacks of everything you want in Blood), then I'd favor Oblit in rotation though you shouldn't be using it constantly. The 3% melee special crit buff is actually very good for stacking Bloody Vengeance. On the other hand, you can just as easily save 5 points (since I consider Toughness and Imp IT a must unless you're only ever tanking with a prot warrior who keeps imp Tclap up) that you can move elsewhere and fill that spot with DS. It is not quite as strong on threat, though it isn't that far behind, but with Blood, the added health REALLY adds up, particularly if you take Vicious Strikes (Unholy). The quirky thing about Blood spec is that you DO in fact bank on crits, but not from crit on your gear, instead it's from crit talents like Dark Conviction, Subversion, Vicious Strikes, Sudden Doom, and pair all of them up with Bloody Vengeance for a solid damage buff.

    Either way certainly does work, but the key to remember is that HS is your animal. DS or Oblit is merely a way to convert FU runes to death runes to get even more HS madness (and to the same end, stack on the Expertise from talents and gear, since you'll have lots of melee swings that you do not want dodged/parried).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7
    So what do you think the highest threat value single attack is?

    I'm thinking obliterate with both dirge and chill of the grave talents. The guide says each extra rune point frome those talents nets 500 threat. So thats 5k threat just from those two talents. Not to mention you could get those talents and still get annihlation, epidemic, rime, subversion, dark conviction, and that would give you +32% chance to crit with oblit, not use up the diseases and have them last a long time also. Not to mention generating 25 rp with each oblit, meaning more DC's. Could be interesting to try.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    o.O Which guide says bonus RP = bonus threat, let alone 500 per point? Technically I know power gains to give threat, but last I heard it was 1 pt = 1 threat
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...at-values.html

    That was the article i pulled the threat stuff from.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Mmm, this hasn't been updated since late in the beta. There have been several changes since then, so I wouldn't trust the numbers 100% unless you test them. I'll be testing that particular matter myself, especially since 1.) it doesn't sound plausible, and 2.) that'd be a MASSIVE reason to take Chill of the Grave for all the Frost DKs who leave it off.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7
    Looking at the threat guide for warriors they seem to get 500 threat per point of rage gain.

    "Rage Gain
    One point of rage generated gives 500 threat. This is not multiplied by the stance multiplier."

    That is from http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...at-values.html


    So i would kind follow that thinking on the dev's part.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7
    Ahh i see why it's not a big deal. 500 sounds like a big deal but it's not when the threat multiplier for just being in frost presance is 207.35. So like 1 pt of rp gen is = to about 2.5 dmg. So those two talents just add and equivalnt threat of ~25 dmg. Nvr mind on that, I kinda miss understood the numbers. Lol oh well thought i might have been on to something.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7
    Ok, did some quick math fu comparing threat of some of the attacks just to see what would happen.

    Assuming 2k weapon dmg, 2 diseases (3 in these) and in frost presance.

    Figuring Attack DMG using
    Death Strike :: (.6 * Weapon DMG + 178.2) = DMG and in game w/ 2 diseases i was gett'n 200% dmg as a heal and 250% w/ 3.
    Scourge Strike :: (.6 * Weapon DMG + 190.5 + (95.25*number of diseases))
    Obliterate :: (1 * Weapon DMG + 292 + (146*number of diseases))
    Scourge Strike :: (.5 * Weapon DMG + 191 + (95.5*number of diseases))

    Then multiplying the dmg and healing (and using half the healing value for threat as per threat guide) by the threat multiplier of frost presance 207.35


    Attacks :: DMG :: Healing :: Threat
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Death Strike :: 1,378.2 :: 2,756.4(3,445.5) :: 571,539.54(642,981.98)
    Scourge Strike :: 1,581(1,676.25) :: N/A :: 327,820.35(347,570.44)
    Obliterate :: 1,784(1,930) :: N/A :: 369,912.4(400,185.5)
    Blood Strike :: 982(1,077.5) :: N/A :: 203,617.7(223,419.6)



    I'm gett'n way more threat from Death Strike than everything else so either conventional wisdom is wrong or i'm figuring something wrong. Probably the latter but i'm just not following it.
    Last edited by CrimsonHatchet; 01-27-2009 at 09:12 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    this hasn't been updated since late in the beta. There have been several changes since then
    Values definitely could have changed and I plan on re-testing all of that in the next few days.

    The 500 threat per RP was definitely accurate at the time though, and I don't see why it wouldn't still be the case today. As Crimson pointed out, 500 in what I like to call "Blizzard threat" is the same as 5 points of damage prior to any modifiers. Threat from RP / rage gain also works the same way as heal threat, getting split between all mobs who have the player on their threat list, so the more mobs present, the less threat they each get.

    Definitely not something worth picking up those talents for.
    Armstrong
    <Elysium>
    Burning Legion US

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonHatchet View Post
    I'm gett'n way more threat from Death Strike than everything else so either conventional wisdom is wrong or i'm figuring something wrong. Probably the latter but i'm just not following it.
    Your math is correct.

    In theory Death Strike definitely can generate more threat than other 1F1U moves. In practice though, you run into two problems:
    1. Healing threat is split between mobs

      If you heal yourself for 2000 hit point (1000 heal threat) and are fighting and two mobs are in combat with you, you've actually generated 500 heal threat on each (including the mob you hit with DS). Three mobs? 333 threat each. Five mobs? 167 threat each.

      So pretty quickly Death Strike loses its edge on a large number of fights.


    2. Overhealing generates zero threat

      If you hit Death Strike when you are at full health you generate zero heal threat. If you self-heal for 2500 when your hp is at 27000/28000, you actually generate 500 heal threat. So on and so forth.

      So in reality, while you'll probably manage to take advantage of Death Strike's heal threat once in a while, the majority of raid situations (multiple healers on you) will make it difficult to achieve the difference you are seeing on paper on a regular basis.
    Armstrong
    <Elysium>
    Burning Legion US

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Armstrong View Post
    Your math is correct.

    In theory Death Strike definitely can generate more threat than other 1F1U moves. In practice though, you run into two problems:
    1. Healing threat is split between mobs

      If you heal yourself for 2000 hit point (1000 heal threat) and are fighting and two mobs are in combat with you, you've actually generated 500 heal threat on each (including the mob you hit with DS). Three mobs? 333 threat each. Five mobs? 167 threat each.

      So pretty quickly Death Strike loses its edge on a large number of fights.


    2. Overhealing generates zero threat

      If you hit Death Strike when you are at full health you generate zero heal threat. If you self-heal for 2500 when your hp is at 27000/28000, you actually generate 500 heal threat. So on and so forth.

      So in reality, while you'll probably manage to take advantage of Death Strike's heal threat once in a while, the majority of raid situations (multiple healers on you) will make it difficult to achieve the difference you are seeing on paper on a regular basis.

    AHHHH!!!! . . . I knew i was missing something. Thank you, i hadn't thought about the overhealing part of it and that not generating threat. So if you are low on health Death Strike > others else use your other 1F1U moves.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Thanks Armstrong, long time no see in the DK discussions =)

    And thanks for keeping up on the data collection.

    The problem is, naturally, that these aren't direct threat values as we track on a meter. If that were true, and Frost Presence was a 200 multiplier, that would mean my doing a modest 1k dps would translate into 200k TPS. I must be missing something.
    Last edited by Satorri; 01-27-2009 at 12:18 PM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonHatchet View Post
    AHHHH!!!! . . . I knew i was missing something. Thank you, i hadn't thought about the overhealing part of it and that not generating threat. So if you are low on health Death Strike > others else use your other 1F1U moves.
    It still largely depends on spec. For instance, I've opted for a Blood spec that also gets Shadow of Death for the additional 2% Str/Stam. This means no Annihilation. Now, depending on whether or not I choose to get Epidemic, effects the choice again.

    Without Epidemic, I can opt for a "diseaseless" rotation, which is less than max threat, but gives tremendous flexibility and frees you to concentrate on factors other than an ideal threat rotation: OBx2 - HSx2 : HSx6

    Again, without Epidemic, I can opt for a "max threat" rotation, but it's highly reliant on correct timing of Oblits since they'll be wiping diseases: IT - PS - HSx2 - OB : IT - PS - HSx4 from this point it's OB - IT - PS - HSx4 repeated.

    With Epidemic, I can opt for a "compromise" rotation, which could actually be higher threat, depending on your health status at the time of the DS: IT - PS - DS - HSx2 : DS - HSx4. This can also be thought of as a priority system: 1 - Diseases up, 2 - HS, 3 - DS.

    Now, obviously, if you opt for Annihilation, then Oblit is going to be higher threat almost always, particularly glyphed and "sigiled".

    I've used 4 significantly different tanking specs in Naxx 25: Unholy, full Frost, Frost VotTW, and now Blood. Of them all, I personally prefer Blood, though it certainly has challenges when AoE tanking, and this preference is largely due to the flexibility of rune use in my rotations and the tiny impact there use for mitigation has on my rotations: they just replace a HS; they don't make me have to "reset" my rotation.

    Of course, I also enjoy the enormous amount of Stamina from combining VotTW, Shadow of Death and Stoneskin Gargoyle.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ames, Iowa
    Posts
    1
    I use Death Strike situationally, but not as a regular part of my rotation. On certain fights it can be a nice helper when my healers are in need of a second to help out a DPS or two. I would never lean on it by any means but it can be a help.

    On certain fights where the healers may have other issues to deal with (Heigan comes very strongly to mind) a Vampiric Blood + death strike with a surplus of runic power can mean the difference between needing a heal and not being a distraction to the healers. It can also be nice right after Maexxna's web wrap to pop right out and DS her to give myself a health cookie to smooth things out.

    My post 3.0.8 Death Strike + Vamp blood record heal is 11.5k, that's no small peanuts. That is with the glyph, vampiric, and a good solid crit. Pre glyph nerf, I hit a 12.5k heal.

    It can also be a good companion for Icebound Fort. I find if I need IBF, an extra boost to incoming health can be a nice bonus. Also, having a blood OT on Patchwerk slamming away with DS every other rotation can help to avoid screwups due to a late landing heal.

    Of course, as I said above, it's a bonus and is in no way 100% reliable. Especially for a tank. If you're DPSing and happen to land some good crits with it, it can also save the healers the need to heal you and allow them to focus on others.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts