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Thread: Paladin Prot Rotation

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    How do you hit Hand of Reckoning after an exo-pull and still do damage? Exorcism, having a cast time and no missile, hits as soon as the cast is done.
    Lag.
    I guess its the same way as a caster you hit your next move just as your last move is about to finish casting.
    The Ashbringer...

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daereg View Post
    Lag.
    I guess its the same way as a caster you hit your next move just as your last move is about to finish casting.
    That is not overlapping spells, that'ss just casting them in the right amount of time to overcome latency. The spells are still leaving in a linear fashion, and arriving the same way(missile speeds aside)
    Last edited by Synapse; 08-11-2009 at 04:53 AM.

  3. #43
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    The spells are still leaving in a linear fashion, and arriving the same way(missile speeds aside)
    This is where "skill" translates to " know that mashing buttons multiple times between each GCD works better than not"?
    Darielle || Chaos Theory || Tanaris(US)

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfjorc View Post
    This is where "skill" translates to " know that mashing buttons multiple times between each GCD works better than not"?
    More or less.

    Except that, using a latency addon, I can do the same without carpal tunnels or having to buy new keyboards every three weeks.

    In WoW, skill was never the coordination to cast your abilities. It's more or a passive thing, like management of cooldowns, observing the events in the environment, and so on.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    What higher threat abilities?
    Avengers shield may work, if glyphed, but that's once every thirty seconds.
    With the new way judgements work, it may boost your threat a bit if you replaced a judgement by a AS every now and then, but using it on cooldown won't fit in with the other abilities you have (which are on 6 and 8 second cooldowns).
    Exorcism is a bad idea to use, it has a casting time now, which makes you vulnerable (and costs you melee swing threat.) It also clashes with other cooldowns.
    Holy wrath is an option, but it's use is highly situational, and it suffers from the same cooldown issue that AS does.

    And remember - all those abilities are spells, so they'll miss a lot more then your other abilities.

    For the rest, what really is there?
    Jere already covered most of this, but:
    • In 3.2, Avenger's Shield (both glyphed and unglyphed) and Hammer of Wrath both do more damage than Holy Shield/Judgement. Substituting AS or HoW in for either HS or Judgement will give a net TPS increase.
    • In 3.1 we also had Exorcism, which filled a similar role (better than HS/Jud), and was the more common substitution option (i.e. every other Judgement). Now that it has a cast time it's not really worth considering, but at the time a lot of research was done (much of it by me) as to how best to integrate it into the rotation.
    • 969 is simply an FCFS with a set of priority queues that places Holy Shield and Judgement, our two weakest damage abilities, at the top of the queue. Quite rigorously, the queues would be:
      • Queue 1 - 6s cooldowns: ShoR > HotR
      • Queue 2 - 9s cooldowns: HS > Jud > Cons

      It's not surprising at all that one could come up with a higher-TPS rotation by rearranging that queue to put the higher-damage abilities above HS/Jud, i.e. AS > Cons > HoW > Jud > HS. That would definitely result in HS downtime though, and increase JotJ downtime due to many fewer Judgements being cast.


    Players also occasionally weave in utility spells (Sacred Shield, HoP/HoFree/HoSalv/HoSac/LoH for some obvious examples). While some of these are panic buttons and don't get planned out, a skilled tank can still manage to sub these in "correctly" to minimize threat loss. That's where the skill argument comes in, though it's somewhat a side discussion from the threat question.
    "Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
    MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0

  6. #46
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    The proper rotation for Tankadin is the 969 rotation. It's maximum threat while also keeping up holy shield.

    The entire rotation goes as follows:

    Holy Shield - Hammer of the Righteous - Judgement - Shield of Righteousness - Consecration - Hammer of Judgement

    Then

    Holy Shield - Shield of Righteousness - Judgement - Consecration - Hammer of the Righteous - Shield of Righteousness.

    The easiest way to have this rotation down is to use bartender, make two action bars with 6 buttons max, and put the actions in the space it belongs in order to the rotation.

    Also, to do the 969 rotation you do not need two points in Improved Judgements, only one point.

  7. #47
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    Just to put some hard numbers behind this discussion, I've re-run a very thorough simulation of FCFS rotations for 3.2, and written an incredibly long and in-depth tutorial on the subject over at maintankadin. Hopefully this puts to rest some of the misconceptions about the similarities and differences between 969 and FCFS rotations.
    Advanced Training 101: 969 and FCFS Theorycraft
    "Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
    MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0

  8. #48
    I find this 9696 rotation to be better suited for when I reverse it to 6969 and add a few touches of my own to it. I have gotten 15k dps as prot on 10 ICC trash and 8k dps at the end of many 5 man heroics with a 2.7k to 3.4k or so gs. Note that I have quit playing the live servers and now am playing on private servers. Here's how my rotation goes:

    Major Glyphs: Divine Plea, Hammer of Righteousness, Judgement
    This provides me with lots of aoe aggro and also good for maintaining single target aggro with some mitigation due to Divine Plea.

    Minor Glyphs: Sense Undead, Blessing of Kings, Lay on Hands
    More dmg from Sense Undead, reduced mana cost BoK for raids, lower cd for LoH

    Abilities used:

    6: Hammer of Righteousness, Shield of Righteousness
    9: Consecration, Holy Shield, Judgement
    Miscellaneous abilities: Hand of Reckoning, Avenger's Shield, Exorcism

    My rotation is as follows:

    Mobs are grouped together/near enough for Avenger's Shield to hit most/all of them = Exo+Hand of Reckoning(no GCD) + Avenger's Shield at the same time (has to be done really quick). Charge in. Hammer of Righteousness-->Holy Shield-->Shield of Righteousness-->Consecration-->Hammer of Righteousness-->+Judgement

    Exorcism can easily be weaved into the rotation and it gives me more threat and reduces my mana further for Spiritual Attunement threat. It is reccommended that you weave it in before Judgement. Judgement is last because it has low threat unless it crits, and has low dmg. Hammer of Righteousness is first for instant aggro and it applies SoV dot to at most 4 targets. Holy Shield second for almost-instant mitigation.

    If mobs are not close together, use this rotation instead:
    Exorcism+Hand of Reckoning-->Charge in, now they are grouped near you-->Avenger's Shield-->Hammer of Righteousness-->Holy Shield-->Shield of Righteousness-->Consecration-->Hammer of Righteousness-->Judgement

    Using this improved rotation of the 9696, I have only lost aggro ONCE in my raiding career. It was against a leet druid tank with 65k hp raid buffed -_-
    Note that you should NOT use Exorcism if there are more than 2 mobs. The interruption is not worth the TPS/Dmg and it actually decreases your TPS/Dps. It is great for bosses though. I change the rotation as needed for the situation that I'm in. This rotation takes a lot to master, but once you get it, be rdy to get nerd raged at cuz you're a pally and that all pallies are op.

    Also, instead of going "OMG NOOB, HS SHOULD BE BEFORE HoR FOR THE MITIGATION AND SHOULD BE CAST BEFORE COMBAT," and things of that sort. I laugh at your ignorance when I get messages like that. It is only about 1.5 sec after HoR before you can cast HS, and that won't kill your healer that much, and it gets AoE threat better than HS right away in case you have a mage that wants to tank everything. This is what works for me, and I only ask you to try it out before extreme criticism is made. Took me 2 months to come up with this rotation and master it.
    Last edited by Darkdestruction; 04-13-2010 at 12:47 AM.

  9. #49
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    On my paladin I use two castsequence macros with combat reset addition, so that ass soon as I leave combat they reset to default spells. I also keep all the spells I have in my macro's on my action bar.

    As in Cider's tanking guide, situation awareness is big, being able to respond to a situation and pull out of a macro'd rotation, and change things in a dynamic situation is the mark of a good tank. So, use the castsequence macro's with the red ? icon so it shows the different Icons. Though, do not rely on the macro's, it will be your downfall.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkdestruction View Post
    I find this 9696 rotation to be better suited for when I reverse it to 6969 and add a few touches of my own to it. I have gotten 15k dps as prot on 10 ICC trash and 8k dps at the end of many 5 man heroics with a 2.7k to 3.4k or so gs. Note that I have quit playing the live servers and now am playing on private servers. Here's how my rotation goes:
    Just so you know, a 6969 rotation is the same as a 9696 rotation. The only difference is which abilities you start with. The total threat they produce is the exact same.

    Code:
    Time     6969     9696
    ----     ----     ----
    00.0     HotR     Judg
    01.5     HS       ShoR
    03.0     Shor     HS  
    04.5     Cons     HotR
    06.0     HotR     Cons
    07.5     Judg     ShoR
    09.0     ShoR     Judg
    10.5     HS       HotR
    12.0     HotR     HS
    13.5     Cons     ShoR
    15.0     ShoR     Cons
    16.5     Judg     HotR
    REPEAT
    BOTH rotations have exactly:
    3x HotR
    3x ShoR
    2x HS
    2x Cons
    2x Judg

    There is no difference in the total threat whatsoever. The only difference will be on the pull, where you start with a higher amount of upfront threat, but that gets averaged out over time since the 96969 has the EXACT same sequence and the EXACT same number of abilities as the 6969 you are trying.

    Technically, the highest threat pull (6969 or 9696) is going to be:
    (Incoming) Exor+HoR+AS
    (Incoming) Judgement
    00.0 HotR
    01.5 Consecration
    03.0 ShoR
    04.5 HS
    CONTINUE

    Which is, in reality, a 96969 rotation. You just launch the judgement as the boss is running in.

    6969 rotations are the exact same as 9696 rotations in terms of total threat.

    Also, as a note, while Exorcism on the pull is a good idea, Exorcism while something is hitting you is a major nono. It is nothing but a decrease in survivability and threat and dps for quite a few reasons:
    1. You cannot dodge/parry/block while casting so you are going to take more damage.
    2. It stops your melee swings and resets your swing timer, which takes out: Melee swings (LARGE DPS component) and SoV 5stack damage.
    3. It has a higher miss rate than any of your other options. Exorcism is on the spell hit table and one time damage. HS and Cons spread it out over multiple ticks and HotR and ShoR are on melee hit
    4. It has a lower crit damage value than either ShoR or HotR (Which is what you are replacing in your rotation if you do it right before judgement).

    If you take the average damage Exorcism does and subtract out the ability you are replacing it with (HotR or ShoR, depending on which judgement you are going before), you will find that difference lower than the sum of the melee attacks and 5 stack SoV hits you lost from casting (and restarting the swing timer). Casting Exorcism while being wailed on by an enemy is not a good idea.
    Last edited by jere; 04-13-2010 at 06:25 AM.

  11. #51
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    I started reading page 1, then spotted a remark about patch 3.1. Holy thread necromancy, Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkdestruction View Post
    I find this 9696 rotation to be better suited for when I reverse it to 6969 and add a few touches of my own to it. I have gotten 15k dps as prot on 10 ICC trash and 8k dps at the end of many 5 man heroics with a 2.7k to 3.4k or so gs. Note that I have quit playing the live servers and now am playing on private servers.
    Not to be rude, but AoE trash pulls don't matter much when looking at a pally tank's DPS. It's ALWAYS high in that situation. Check your DPS on a lone boss and see how that measures up. Of course, "private server" seems kinda suspect as well.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by VenomXII View Post
    Hey you Paladins,

    Currently i do this:

    Avengers's Sheild
    Holy shield
    Judge light/wisdom
    Hand of Reckoning
    Shield Slam
    Hammer of the Righteous
    Consecrate

    Rinse/Repeat

    Now i have 2 points into improved Judgements.
    As Paxi said, there's no need to put Hand of Reckoning in your rotation; I would actually advise against doing so. Especially if you are a secondary/off-tank in a raid or you are dealing with a small number of mobs (e.g. a boss), you need to keep your HoR off of CD as much as possible. Personally, I would reorder your rotation:

    Avengers's Shield
    Consecration
    Hammer of the Righteous
    Holy Shield
    Shield of Righteousness
    Judgement

    ...for the following reasons. First, I have heard many different view concerning whether Consecration or Holy Shield generates more AoE threat, and I am inclined to think that Consecration will generate more considering how many mobs you will usually be fighting at once (please correct me if I am wrong). I put Hammer of the Righteous early on the rotation so that from early in the fight, you have the Seal of Vengeance DoT (if you're using it) on every mob. Judgement comes last because if this is your first run through the rotation, you want to use HP/mana, then regen HP/mana. I've found that by using JoL or JoW early in the fight, you max out on HP/mana, thus decreasing the efficiency and effectiveness of your Judgement.

    Concerning macros:

    Macros will make your rotation easier of manage, but will reduce your freedom to switch it up. Personally, I use two button macros: one for 6-sec rotations and one for 9-sec rotations. However, I also have all the abilities on an action bar, for the sake of flexibility.

    It would be something like:

    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=6 spell1,spell2

    and

    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=9 spell1,spell2,spell3
    The reset on these macros will not work the way you want to. "reset=6" says, "the macro will reset 6 seconds after it was last called". For example, let's say you wanted to reset the macro while on spell1. You would have to wait 6 (or 9) seconds until it reset. A better option would be to have the macros reset when you left combat, or if you held down a modifier key while calling the macro:

    /castsequence reset=combat/ctrl Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of Righteousness

    and

    /castsequence reset=combat/ctrl Consecration, Holy Shield, Judgement

    The macro should automatically reset after casting the last spell in the sequence, if you hold down ctrl while you call it, or if you leave combat.

    Hope this helped.

    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

    Sn1per
    Level 73 Draenei Prot Paladin Hyjal Biblybopkins
    Last edited by Sn1per; 04-25-2010 at 02:21 PM.

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