Frost build - Cannot make up my mind

[Mufuti]

Not really a long time reader because I discovered this site only when I started tanking, still a first time poster and first of all I have to get out a HUGE thank you to the community here and tankspot as a whole.

I have been specced unholy for tanking since I created my character and now I realize this post went far too long already so I am editing out my boring history and get right to the point - I am a frost tank now
My questions mostly focus on 10man and occasional heroics.

Essentially I cannot decide wether or not to pick up Icy Talons. There is not always a shaman with me for the haste buff and no other frost dk - I cannot see how I can take points out of any other talent though except for one or two single points or maybe 2hand specialization - it still doesnt add up to the 6 free talent points I need (?).
I understand that the widespread opinion is that you have to take it no matter what, as long as you cannot get the buffs anywhere else but what can I drop for it - or do I really have to?
What really messed things up for me is that Killing Machine is so good now with 2h. I think it is far too good not to take it.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=000000000000



There are some other things I have not completely thought through just as 1,2 or 0 points epidemic because I am not familiar with my rotation yet or choosing Deathchill and 1 point in Merciless combat instead of picking up Frost Aura( for me it was leave it alone or spend two points and I can see the benefit of Deathchill especially if I am not familiar with the spec yet). I would also like to get Subversion for the higher crit rate on oblit but these are 3 points I really cant imagine in any way to be left over somewhere.

My next really huge grudge is with the talent Morbidity. I like it because I like having DnD ready when we get an add or simply for fights with adds constantly spawning and quickly picking them up.
As an unholy tank especially with the bugged bonus damage it received I hold it on cd most of the time anyway.
However I suffer from a horrible game breaking bug with this talent which reduces my FPS to around 0.5 as long as I use DnD with most other forms of aoe and my runes (I think it is the blood runes) are on cooldown, also dependant on my location and the number of enemies. I can work around that with reducing spell details to Zero! but not even this is working all the time.

Will I be able to make it work with my frost build and 30s DnD cooldown?
I cant log in right now to test it but I am afraid it will be no good.

I hope some of you guys can help me. I already learned so much essentials through tankspots but now I couldnt find help for my specific questions and ingame all the morons telling me "unholy cannot tank spec frost" are now telling me "Blood is the new tank spec". I had it with them, seriously.


greetings
Mufuti


allright, great entrance. How can I delete my thread? I guess this belongs in the Armory Ratings Discussion.. sorry, then again I did not link my armory heh

[Inaara]

You're definetely going in the right direction.

To answer your question about Icy Talons, yes. Especially if you plan on focusing on heroics and 10 mans. My guild does not run with an Enhancement shaman at all so it isn't even a question for me.

Killing Machine is taking up alot of your points and I am strongly against wasting points in it.

Morbidity is not needed but it does help if you're having trouble with AoE tanking. I personally don't have it right now. Epidemic is an absolute must as it allows you to get some extra attacks in before having to refresh. In an AoE situation refreshing is as simple as tab Pestilence but on bosses that obviously isn't an option. I did notice that you don't have Icy Reach. If you're relying on HB as your AoE attack then you need to have it. More range allows for more error.

My sig has my armory link. Check out the spec. The only change I would suggest making would be to take out the 2 points in 2H spec and 3 points in Subversion and to put them in Bladed Armor to buff yor HB. Not sure what kind of weapon you're using but HB should perform better than OB for you.

[Frakalak]

I agree with Inaara about Morbidity, its just not worth the points u could throw into better tps.

However I decided to NOT take icy talons/imp icy talons and instead take killing machine. After a day or two of tanking heroics (no raiding yet) I think this was a great choice. For aoe pulls having an auto-crit HB is simply godsend (and allows me to save deathchill for when I need to grab quick aggro), and I havent had any issues for single target threat w/o icy talons. This is all without an enhancement shammy for windfury, and I imagine if i were to have it, it would give more KM procs.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator my build

[Mufuti]

Thank you for your reply, while you were writing I ninja edited my standpoint on Killing Machine into my post
I am not too stubborn not to try without it though.

My thoughts on epidemic were that I will be forced to refresh icy touch regularly because I am going for the new sigil, mostly for the little avoidance boost it gives me. I lost a lot of parry with the ssg rune which allowed me to change my gems for more threat and hp.
cannot link my armory right now because the EU armory is mixed up with the Oceanic one somehow and blocks me out. It rarely works for me at all....
I changed most of my defense gems for expertise, stamina and hit.

I thought about Icy reach too. In my first planned build it was in but I was having so much problem with getting everything I wanted that I took it out.

You severely outgear me, I have 3 T7 set pieces with some other naxx loot and heroic/ badge gear,also a few blues still.

What do you think of putting out the three points in Virulence? I am not raiding with a moonkin or shadowpriest and I even miss a little hit for my melee right now, I eat the 40 hit 40 stam buffood :-(


Thank you too, Frakalak. I am actually relieved to read that I can do without Morbidity because when not specced into it my stuttering problem is gone.

I figure Icy Talons + Killing Machine is a great synergy if KM takes the original weapon speed into account(I think it does) but it seems there is no way to get both at all.

Also I must add that I stepped up to being MT now. I had no problems whatsoever with tanking all the trash even with our aoe crazy dps. But now I am concerned with holding aggro on bosses on top of keeping the trash on me (our warriors are Sloooooow..^^)

[Inaara]

I think that Virulence is a waste of three points, then again the only "spell" I cast is Icy Touch since I OB instead of HB. If you still want it take three points out of BA and if you really don't want Epidemic then you can siphon the points out of that as well. How long does the new sigil's buff last?

[Frakalak]

30seconds, so pretty much 100% uptime

and for bosses the new rune strike should be enough so as long as you are using it as much as possible everything would be fine

[Mufuti]

As unholy I never missed anything when it was important but yes, I figured with howling blast it would ruin my day when I miss right at the beginning. Also I am not sure if I get the sigil buff when my icy touch misses I need to try that.

I will try without Bladed Armor I guess, why exactly are you not using HB by the way?
Would 2 hand specialization even be worth it when I dont rely on obliterate as much?

[Inaara]

30 seconds is a long time, longer than the diseases last with Epidemic. I still hold my stance that Epidemic is a must, you get to HB more with longer diseases. If HB is on CD you can still OB and it gives you time to throw in FS.

With the new rune weapon I don't see how defense could ever be a problem, your avoidance should also still be good even with the loss from Swordshattering and switching out defense chants/gems.

EDIT: You posted as I was posting. As I said, if you are going to use HB over OB then 2H spec is a waste, as is Subversion which is what my spec includes. I don't HB if I'm tanking a boss because my OB's hit alot harder. I'm also expertise capped for parry so Obliterate will hit alot more often as the spell hit cap is higher than OB's.

[Mufuti]

I am not completely done with my gems and enchants yet but I am sitting at slightly above 24 dodge and exactly 16.80 parry. I will even lose some more of both, I am thinking of changing my defense enchant on bracers with expertise and 2 or 3 other gems still.

My main problem is that I will probably have to rely on Obliterate for boss fights too. I want to perform well there so my guild can see I am up for it.
They also rely on me for the trash though and I dont want to tell them to take it slow (not that they would listen to me anyway)

[Inaara]

40 stam is better than 15 expertise, then again I wouldn't suggest spending that amount of gold unless it's on Bracers of the Unholy Knight - Item - World of Warcraft. Your dodge is good, around the same amount as I am unbuffed and your parry is about 3% less than mine. Considering the huge gap between your gear and mine, I would say that your stats aren't bad at all. Gem and gear for expertise, don't chant for it.

[Mufuti]

I have Bracers of the Herald - Item - World of Warcraft and I do want to own the others

Currently I have +12 def on them because I really had a hard time pre patch staying critimmune.
I dont know when we will be able to do 25mans, I do hope it will be soon but it is not really in the foreseeable future.

[Inaara]

Try and get into a pug as Razuvious is the first boss in Military wing. Your bracers are good, if you have the gold to spend then dish it out for the chant.

[Mufuti]

You dont know the pugs on my server....
Still Razuvious was rather easy in the 10man version maybe I really should give it a try.


I am on my way home now and I will respec instantly choose my victims and do a few test runs
I am going with this spec now http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=000000000000

If I really cant live without icy reach I will drop KM completely and have enough points over for the last one in Merciless combat and maybe BA.
If bosses give me trouble I guess I will have to take the 2 points out of BA and try out 2h spec.

Thanks for the great help and now I guess I have to put your advice to use. I will post here with my results.. or quietly respec heh

[Malkieri]

Try this build out: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

it's a pretty standard build that picks up IIT and KM as well as the mitigation talents in frost. having epidemic is pretty important imo for the fights where you aren't always able to maintain the right rotation, or have to move off your main target and grab an add, or any of a dozen things and need your diseases to stay up. 2h specialization is nice but having 25% more haste from IIT and the procs from KM outweigh it.

as to morbidity, YAY IT'S FIXED!!! we can now DnD to our little unbeating heart's content without frame freezing (can't tell you how many fire walls that cost me in sarth 3d).

The World of Warcraft Armory - my armory link so you can take a look at my gem/gear/chant choices.

[Mufuti]

Good to hear it is fixed, will kae it easy for me to come back to being unholy if I cant work it out with Frost.

I realized two problems with my spec: Icy Reach is indeed very welcome. I completely rely on HB for aoe. When things go as planned my initial dnd is enough but when we add a group and dnd is not off cd it doesnt please me so much.

Frost is definately more about finesse and positioning in this regard, I cant just lay down my dnd and go afk... also one of the reasons I feel like I should take Virulence because missing with HB will be horrible.

We actually wiped in Old Kingdom because of an add in the back I wasnt able to pick up fast enough when I wasted my HB and it didnt reach far enough. So now I respecced for Icy reach and took the point out of Merciless Combat and Chill of Death(I already miss this one).

I really wanted to try Merciless combat for the extra threat when burning down a boss and possibly working against the enrage timer, but I couldnt see where else to take the points of.
What is everyones opinion on this talent? I managed to keep everything on me in the three heroics I ran until now but I wasnt too happy with my threat compared to my previous build. of course this could very well be because I was playing not so good=)