loot issue

[morelore]

Depends if I ask for a tank which does. OP asked for 1600 dps, rogue didn't deliver. Assuming the rogue knows his dps, (which we ofcourse don't know) he put the success of the raid at jeopardy by thinking:"well I might not have enough, but surely someone will make up for my lack of dps". That is not the kind of attitude to reward with epics.

Doing this to anyone would be a dick move and I'd blacklist anyone who did it. I might never invite the rogue again either, but I would *definitely* never run with the ML.

[Ohnoto]

rogue 2>I can pull 1600 easy (but knows he can't)

You are speculating that the rogue knew from the start that he could or couldnt do 1600 DPS. I never had Recount until I hit 80, never used it in BC, nor do I even know if it was around in BC, though I do think it was. DPS meters are not everything.

Do not base everything done on DPS meters.

VoA is not a melee friendly fight and with all the moving DPS meters are often different from one person to another.

Even if he did 1300 DPS, thats still 1300 DPS more than if he wasnt there. Down right, deserves the loot.

[Sunderhorn]

I'm going to have to agree that the OP did the right thing, because he specifically asked for 1600+ DPS. I'm also going to say that it was his raid, and therefore his perogative. Some people obviously feel that it was neither his right nor the right thing to do.

I understand the opposing viewpoint, but it is a slippery slope. What if the rogue in question had only done 1000 dps? 500? If he had been afk the whole time? Everyone's going to draw the line in a different place.

That being said, the nature of the game can require you to a be more lenient/tolerant of other people's character than you might otherwise be. You never know when you'll need to recruit again or fill out the few empty slots in a raid...

[Heisenberg]

Doing this to anyone would be a dick move and I'd blacklist anyone who did it. I might never invite the rogue again either, but I would *definitely* never run with the ML.

This.

[orcstar]

You are speculating that the rogue knew from the start that he could or couldnt do 1600 DPS. I never had Recount until I hit 80, never used it in BC, nor do I even know if it was around in BC, though I do think it was. DPS meters are not everything.

Do not base everything done on DPS meters.

VoA is not a melee friendly fight and with all the moving DPS meters are often different from one person to another.

Well, if you don't know what dps is how can you join when they ask for 1600 dps? DPS meters aren't everything...........but if you're joining a group and the requirement for joining is: 1600 dps then obviously on that fight in that raid dps meters DO matter.

Even if he did 1300 DPS, thats still 1300 DPS more than if he wasnt there. Down right, deserves the loot.

That's flawed reasoning, he's taking up a spot someone else could have used to do higher dps.

[Lizana]

If the boss is killed and the person helped, they deserve a shot at the loot. Now if the raid leader said at the start " Anyone that doesnt do 1600 dps will not get to roll for any loot, thats a different issue, but thats not the case here. I am sure that rouge can do 1600 dps on a tank and spank fight. You cannot expect some one to meet up to an imaginary goal you have set in your head unless you tell them of that. If your that concerned with your dps, make everyone go fight a dummy for 10 minutes before the fight and calculate their sustained dps then. To me that would be like telling a tank, if you lose agro you wont get a shot at any loot. Sometimes things out of our control happen.

[Lizana]

That's flawed reasoning, he's taking up a spot someone else could have used to do higher dps.

The boss still died,

[Thymoleon]

I'm glad to see that the thread is getting lively.
So let me precise better the circumstances: after having told that rogue my decision, and before sorting the loot, he just said that everyone in there should have a chance the roll, that he had anyway contributed.. so nothing like "was lagging like hell" or "didnt know my dps". After that I discovered he's a good player because he contacted me with his main, which I already knew. So, ex eventum, he knew his dps. So, ex eventum too, he just consciously lied to me.
It isn't absolutly anything criminal, also because WoW is a game and should be taken lightly. In real life, I'd always behave like I did. But in a game.. I think things like that arent that serious. Definitely I'll let everyone roll in the future, except extreme cases.
Because of quiet gamelife too. As I said, he started insulting me, then he called a friend of his to insult me. This friend told me that what I did was against terms of use, and his brother was GM and he would suspend my account, as if I didn't know GMs cannot interfere in such things and terms of use are something else. But this just to make you laugh a little, cause they probably were just kids.

One last thing.. what if I were one of the rogues which did awesome dps, and then I watched the loot won my a mate who did crap dps? Maybe I would have argued with the ML... so no quiet gamelife at all.

[orcstar]

If the boss is killed and the person helped, they deserve a shot at the loot. Now if the raid leader said at the start " Anyone that doesnt do 1600 dps will not get to roll for any loot, thats a different issue, but thats not the case here. I am sure that rouge can do 1600 dps on a tank and spank fight. You cannot expect some one to meet up to an imaginary goal you have set in your head unless you tell them of that. If your that concerned with your dps, make everyone go fight a dummy for 10 minutes before the fight and calculate their sustained dps then. To me that would be like telling a tank, if you lose agro you wont get a shot at any loot. Sometimes things out of our control happen.

There was no imaginary goal, it was clear to the rogue that he was invited because he could do 1600 dps.

It's like a deal: "Hey can I join your raid?" RL:"Well sure you can, there's only 1 restriction: you need to be able to do 1600 dps".
An agreement was made.
The rogue didn't do 1600 dps thereby not providing his part of the deal, why should the raidleader be kept to hold up his part of the deal (distributing loot to him)?

[Lizana]

There was no imaginary goal, it was clear to the rogue that he was invited because he could do 1600 dps.

It's like a deal: "Hey can I join your raid?" RL:"Well sure you can, there's only 1 restriction: you need to be able to do 1600 dps".
An agreement was made.
The rogue didn't do 1600 dps thereby not providing his part of the deal, why should the raidleader be kept to hold up his part of the deal (distributing loot to him)?

Unless you said you have to do 1600 to be able to roll loot you withheld information. Therefore you were not upfront and honest, therefore any "deal" is void. You were wrong for not giving full disclosure before the deal was agreed on.

[Paramount]

Somthing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the human aspect of this.

Yes you set a standard.
But people are people.

How often have you set a standard for someone in real life? Has everyone lived up to your standards?

Luck is luck. Maybe he just was not critting as much as usual.
That coupled with the fact that melee have to move out of crap in vault, you could expect a drop in dps anyways.

This rogue was another person. This person spent just as much time as you did in the instance and you are depriving him or her of the only possible rewards based on damage meters which may or may not be accurate....

Yeah...bad move I think. But if you want to be strict, make people angry, and possibly hurt your reputation, be my guest.

[Rosenfel]

He'll never reach 1600 if he doesn't get an opportunity to better himself. Obviously you do draw the line somewhere, but let's be very serious a minute.

A pug'd Archevon really doesn't classify as a raid that has to have such strict limitations. If this was a guild run that had basic standards and objective rules, then you'd have a serious argument. But a pug? You can't honestly let yourself think that incorporating so much structure makes you a just person who weilded the hand of righteous - all you did was give yourself a bad name, not just among those looking for a chance to do better, but those who are better damage than that Rogue, who look down on such unfair actions.

It's hard to define "fairness" but I can't help but think that those that consider the OP's actions to be right are a select group of people that have done something like this and are looking for some kind of justification for themselves.

[Niian]

Ego trippin.

Oh noes not 300 dps missing.
Boss is dead, he helped, thus he deserves a shot at loot.
How the fuck are people meant to do the DPS if people like you have stupid egotistical rules stating "you must do X DPS otherwise you don't get loot".

Are you on Frostmourne? If so please let me know your char name so I can put you on my ignore list.

[Skinzenbonz]

Unless you state it up front, you are in the wrong.

Maybe he was at 1600 DPS under normal circumstances. There are plenty of reasons for someone losing 300 DPS. Maybe there was a lot of melee and he spent time dodging spikes or maybe he was avoiding the clouds. Standing the cloud just to get a little more DPS isn't smart. If 1600 DPS is his max then even a little disruption will drop him a fair ways.

It isn't right to have limits imposed after the fact. Were the healers and tanks subjected to the same scrutiny?

[Tatt]

While not making a definite decision on which way the loot issue should go (personally I am a dick and would have done the same as the OP) I think the whole "Maybe he does not have recount and doesn't know his dps" thing is utter crap. A..if he does not know his dps, don't respond to someone requesting a specific number. That's like saying its not a tanks fault if he wipes the raid because he only has 500 defense, and his excuse is "I didn't know". People have to take personal responsibility for their performance and abilities. I personally have told people any liabilities I have when volunteering for a pug..."Hey these are my stats but you will need to explain the fights to me" etc....also loot problems happen in pugs all the time, this seems much less severe than some we have all seen...how about the RL of the pug who decides that because he organized it he gets the 22 slot bag, or the bag of gems (Magtheridon)......RL decides the rules, everyone knows that, if the rogue doesn't like it, don't come back.

[Lizana]

RL decides the rules, everyone knows that, if the rogue doesn't like it, don't come back.

Yes and when the raid leader makes up BS like you dont get loot becuase my dps meter says you didnt do this AFTER the boss is already killed thats a bad leader. If the rule had been stated before hand okay, if its made up after the boss is killed, thats bs

[orcstar]

If you lower your standards, next time he makes a raid the good people are gona think: he lets in people that don't perform, maybe he's boosting his poorly geared/skilled friends over our backs and don't wanne come.
And bad geared/skilled players see your raid as free loot without effort and try to get in claiming HEY I can dps lemme in.

You end up with a raid not getting loot at all.

[Tatt]

Liz I know you hate it when I call you a hypocrite, but I have seen you be absolutely ruthless to people on these threads about their gear and specs....and now you are defending a rogue who probably got outdamaged by the tanks? I have to agree with Orcstar here, if their are no repercussions for pugs to show up and float through a raid (remember this isn't just an instance or even a heroic, people only get to do this 1 time a week) then that hurts that RL and other's ability to get pugs together, because everyone goes "Why bother when all I am going to do is pick up slack for others?"

[Armstrong]

Liz I know you hate it when I call you a hypocrite

Please don't make personal attacks. Either state your opinion, provide constructive input or don't post.

[Saturday]

Well, if you don't know what dps is how can you join when they ask for 1600 dps? DPS meters aren't everything...........but if you're joining a group and the requirement for joining is: 1600 dps then obviously on that fight in that raid dps meters DO matter.
That's flawed reasoning, he's taking up a spot someone else could have used to do higher dps.

Hi, I can do 2000 DPS as a tank if I have the ideal group set up, that being I get a bloodlust and have a bunch of melee buffs and the boss going down as quickly as possible. Take away all the ideal conditions, and suddenly I'm doing a whole lot less DPS.

Now if I was asked "Can you do 1600 DPS?" I can honestly say "Yes I can". Can I do it in a raid where I don't know what other classes/specs are going to be there IN ADDITION to a fight where you may have to stay away from everybody else? No.

This is one of those cases where the OP was in the wrong. Even assuming the rogue couldn't have been able to pull it off in ideal situations, not letting someone roll AFTER the fact not withstanding the stupid DPS question.