He was there, he contributed, you won. Why would you exclude him from loot?
was ML in an Archavon25 run and the following issue occurred:
while forming the group i specified that i needed 1600+ dps (cause that is the average dps required to get him down, i supposed). Eventually there were four rogues in the group. One of them was pulling only 1300 dps.
It happened that three rogue items dropped, and I decided to exclude the rogue who didnt meet the requirements i stated from the loot.
Obviously he started insulting me ect ect, but i didnt care about that.
i'd like to know the opinion of some of you, since i'm no expert raider.
Whether he deserved it or not isn't the issue.
Do you think treating this individual in this manner damaged your and your guild's reputation? How many people do you think he will tell that are you are unfair? How much drama did it create?
If it was me, I would have let him roll. I'm a big fan of building bridges, not burning them.
I'm sorry, but you're very much in the wrong here. You bought him (thus locking him to the raid), and killed the boss (you don't mention, but I'm guessing you got him down first time) - just because he didn't meet your arbitrary DPS limit doesn't mean he didn't contribute to the raid.
I bet you didn't tell anyone before hand you were going to exclude anyone who didn't meet this DPS requirement either, which makes what you did even more wrong.
I agree that you were in the wrong here, coming from Guild leader and a Raid leader. If the person was there and helped they have the right to looting. Even if was subpar your standards.
Yes, it is stated that to kill him within 5 minutes on Heroic you need every member doing the 1600 DPS +. This was a much bigger deal 1-2 weeks after the expansion came out as most were not geared.
I would assume that in your 25 man you had some people doing 2500-3000 DPS. This well more than makes up for that 300 he was lacking.
If he was doing the best he could given his gear / experience he very much deserves the loot.
Thank you for your contribute dudes, much appreciated.
I'm a bit on the side of the topicstarter here. Every dps should know what dps they do in a fight.
If the leader asked for someone doing at least 1600 dps (which tbh isn't hard) and the rogue LIED to the leader about his capabilities expecting a free ride to free loot to which he piggybacked on the other raidmembers............I think the decision was correct.
Rogue lied about his capabilities to get in a raid to get loot, not through his own effort but of other peoples efforts.
If you let things like this go you jeapordise future attempts because other low dps lying people will try to come in and you might not meet enrage timers.
Not everyone knows thier DPS. Not everyone has Recount. Still not the rogues fault.
Everyone has to contribute. If you asked for a specific contribution: (1600 dps) and someone doesn't meet that contribution then while it may sound harsh, it's only fair to the others who did what you asked for and even beyond to have some penalty for someone underperforming.
Not the raidleaders fault that the rogue doesn't know his own dps and didn't meet the requirements specifically asked for. He had the choice of NOT joining a raid where 1600 dps was required and asked for.
(While I wouldn't do the same as the topicstarter, I just wouldn't invite that rogue in the future. But what penalty to give is another discussion.)
Last edited by orcstar; 01-22-2009 at 07:10 AM.
If a player was there for a boss kill, he deserves loot. That is down right fair. Apparently he was good enough to kill the boss with only being subpar 300 DPS based on one persons assement.
Now, if they could not kill down the boss or get close to it after a couple of tries, then yes, you start looking at the lowest DPS (If that is the problem) and replace them.
I fully understand that whole thing of needing 1600 DPS for killing him, but if I go in and I have 1900 and someone else has 1300 then that all evens out.
In the past I've had to PUG 1 person for my guild runs of Naxx and many of my members have lost loot to these PUGs. Do they complain saying "They arent in the guild, they did this or they did that" No, because everyone knows that it is FAIR to allow anyone at a boss kill to roll.
He was there, he participated, and the boss died. He deserves his loot. If you're going to play games with "required DPS" and numbers and crap, then you state it up front so everyone knows not to raid with you, and you should kick people *before* the boss is down. Maybe you could form your raid at the target dummy so everyone joining can demonstrate before you accept them.
Good luck pugging with that policy.
The thing about DPS meters also is that they do not always pick up everyone's DPS. You should never fully trust them. Ive been in groups where one person is top on mine, but 3rd on another.
A ranged persons DPS Meter may not pick up a Melee's and on Vault its not uncommon for that to happen as he is jumping around alot and there is alot of movement going on.
Personally I would have let him roll on loot and marked him on my list as bad, since you didn't state the DPS requirements were also a loot qualifier.
But I see your reasoning. 1300 DPS is pretty terrible.
I don't state my "penalties" up front either or otherwise you will always see people are gona walk the line with em.
Yesterday things were going too easy and a lot slack came about. Between Razuvious and and Gothik we had 3 ninja pulls wiping the raid. I very clearly told: "I don't want any ninjapulls anymore". And when someone did, I called the raid for the evening "as the penalty".
If you're doing to deny loot to someone after a successful kill, for any reason, you had better state that up front. Doing it after the fact, for *any reason*, is loot stealing. I imagine the OP would be pretty pissed if he got passed on loot because "he took too much damage".
It is not a steal at all.
The requirements were stated before invites, the rogue did not meet the requirements, why does he deserve the loot?
/1>lfm dps for VoA minimum required 1600 dps
rogue 1>I can pull 1500 is that enough?
rogue 2>I can pull 1600 easy (but knows he can't)
to rogue 1>sorry, got someone else.
rogue 2 gets invited does 1300 dps and gets loot.
rogue 1 has just been shafted out of loot by allowing opportunism.
While I would have done it different: requirements were set up front, you kill the Boss but the rogue for whatever reason didn't meet the requirements. So why let him get away with it?
Everyone is always whining about dps going heroics in leveling greens expecting free loot, doing lower dps then the tank, and in a raid 1300 is really really low for a dps, you could do that by autoattacking, and now a dps doesn't meet requirements stated clearly before the raid and everyone is like: no no, he deserved loot he was at the kill.
Fact is, the rogue performed awfully at the kill, didn't give what he was supposed to and what the raidleader asked for before inviting, so why did he deserve loot?
This is a big signal to said rogue to get his act together and learn to play.
Last edited by orcstar; 01-22-2009 at 09:11 AM.
For the exact same reason you wouldn't refuse loot to a tank who only avoided 30% of attacks instead of 50%, or who took 250k damage instead of 200k.
If I recall VoA has never really been a melee friendly fight with all the running around he does, the poison clouds and such that melee should be trying to avoid. Also was this dps requirement an overall requirement or a boss only requirement? I've done several 25 VoA's where we've had about 12-15 people clearing the trash and then everyone else there for the boss. I wouldn't deny the guy a chance at rolling for the loot, however I would have told him next time do not attempt to join raids if you can not put out the required numbers.
Also remember just because its a 25 man raid doesn't mean you need 25 people to actually do it.