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Thread: On dodge for feral druids

  1. #1
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    On dodge for feral druids

    I've been playing as a feral tank for about 10 months now, and I love it. I've read quite a bit of text on what should be done and right now all I am looking for is just some constructive criticism and suggestions on things that the community here may look at me improving.

    Currently my raid experience in Wrath is all of 10/25-man naxx 10/25-man Obsidian Sanctum, and of course Archavon.

    I'm at work right now so I can't link my wowarmory currently.

    I'm Ferim on the Ghostlands server..

    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by Ferim; 01-14-2009 at 04:36 PM. Reason: Sorry I think I may have posted this on the wrong forum! please move it :)

  2. #2
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    Not sure what you're asking about. Took a quick look at your profile and your gear, gems & enchants look fine. If you are more specific, that would help people respond.

  3. #3
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    I apologize if I was vague, I just want some other perspective from people who play feral tank on something that maybe I myself am not seeing as far as my gear goes. Somethings that I may improve on or something that I may wanna pay particular attention to. I've heard some people on Tankspot.com say that 40% dodge is LOW. I'm not sure if I want to loose my 38% dodge self-buffed and maybe stack more stamina, or go for higher dodge rating.
    Also I'm torn between 2 trinkets.
    The Essence of Gossamer and The Offering of Sacrifice. Yes the Essence gives over 1k health and the proc is not bad either, but the offering of sacrifice has the sheer armor on it and to me that seems like the right choice. What do you think?

    Again sorry if this is kinda vague.

  4. #4
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    After the next patch, the armor won't be multiplied into your bear form, so it basically won't be worth much to bears. So you'll only be getting 550 armor.

    Basically put Essence > Offering after next patch.
    Never underestimate the butterfly, especially if he's in epix ;D
    Healing Priest to Tanking Druid, bear with me here

  5. #5
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    So after the patch what would you say is an acceptable amount of armor while in Dire Bear Form? Because with the Essence on I've got MAYBE 25k armor and that seriously seems a little low for the content that I've been doing.

  6. #6
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    Ok well, they're all good questions. In terms of trinket choice, I would say it depends on the fight. Have a selection with you at all times, so make an effort to collect them all. eg with the upcoming change to armor on trinkets, defenders code is no longer a super-ultimate trinket that every bear *must* have. They did this precisely because they wanted bears to have choice, not an exact list for all occassions.

    eg If I need max mitigation (patchwerk) I'll always go with max armor items. If I'm tanking trash, I tend to use dps & dodge gear more. Dodge means more when you're being hit by many mobs: you'll dodge more of the attacks. It a boss hits you once every 1.2 seconds, dodge is not so important: You'll either dodge, or you wont, but your healers have time to react either way. Dont get me wrong - dodge is still great on single bosses, its always an awesome thing. But there's no definitive guide.

    Check out the trinket darkmoon card: greatness. It's boe so you can buy it (for lots of gold!) or craft it yourself through inscription. It took me a lot of gold to craft, but it's one of my favourites now. Procs my dodge up to 52% at times.

    So much depends on your healers: do they go oom when healing you? How quickly do you kill bosses? (depends on your dps). Dont worry too much about precise numbers. If you keep picking up solid upgrades (and you know what a tanking upgrade is for you when you see it) you'll be fine. As a rough guide, I'm around 42k health raid buffed. Possibly I would need more for sarth++ but not for anything else. Dodge is around 44% passive right now. Stam is useful to a point, but if you're always between 50% and 100% health, then the extra stamina may be wasted.

    Personally, I dont gem/enchant for stamina - I think there's enough on the gear, and with the socket bonuses on t7, which I try to meet. I'm more interested in agility, expertise and hit. Then, I'll start working on damage... maybe even put some strength gems in there for fun.

    Some other examples to think about: are you clearing all your raids successfully atm? If so, you're doing fine. If you're dying a lot, it could be also be your healers. How do you compare to your other tanking class friends in guild? Is one player easier to keep up than another? Try things out and experiment. Look at your stats after the fight, then try something different, and compare the new stats.

    Haha now I'm giving you a vague response. I think the real joy in the game is working these things out for yourself, because it depends so much on everyone else.

  7. #7
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    About not gemming for stamina I agree with that BUT, I'm trying to see if getting more dodge % would help my healers out. I'm going to say conservatively that I'm the best geared feral tank in my guild. The other feral tank stack for stam, and actually gemmed for defense (I have no idea why). For our last patchwork encounter he had 43k hp raid buffed whereas I had my 37k with 44% dodge for the encounter. The fight started and I just watched him die. I don't know if it was an avoidance issue or maybe the healer got the time off on the heal or he took 2 hateful's in a row, but healers have no problem keeping me up.

    I was wondering, with my gear should I try to gain more dodge or armor or maybe work on my stamina a little bit? As far as armor goes, what is a desireable amount for the current raid content, I've had no problem so far but a solid number would really help me out because with that essence on I've only got like 24k armor, vice 28k with the offering.
    Healers usually have no problem keeping me up.

    I've also got the Journey's End and the Origin of Nightmares as weapons. As a threat generator I really like the Journey's End, but the Origin of Nightmare's is truly the best tanking staff in the game. I'm gonna mess around with some stuff when I get home, but please keep the input coming!'
    Last edited by Ferim; 01-14-2009 at 07:18 PM.

  8. #8
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    Really, after you can't get insta-gibbed by the raid boss, you should gem for avoidance. That motto works with all tanks. Also geming with Def/Stam is a great way to gain stam and avoidance if you're trying to get a socket bonus.

  9. #9
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    Hrm. That's actually a real good way to look at things. Thank You!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackhand View Post
    Also geming with Def/Stam is a great way to gain stam and avoidance if you're trying to get a socket bonus.
    I wouldn't ever gem Defense as a druid. I've actually tinkered with some defense items and gems to look at the increase to dodge and armor, and it still seems to pale in comparison to agility. For a warrior or paladin, where defense rating increases their chance to mitigate with three stats: dodge, parry and block, as opposed to our one: dodge, then sure, defense sounds like a good way to go, but druids are crit immune with SotF alone and stacking defense yields less gains than agility. I think that's bad advice and I am still perplexed when I see druids with defense gear.

    That being said, I am still looking for a solid explanation as to why druids are doing this.

    Stearns, I'm also very interested to speak to you about your opinion on druids taking strength/stam items over agility/stam items because you sound fairly knowledgeable on the theorycrafting, and you have progressed further into the content than I have.

    On some items, I totally understand why druids are taking a strength item, Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft, for example. Armor + Stam + Dodge = a druid's dream. However, on the emblem of heroism necks, for instance, I've seen several druids taking the Chained Military Gorget - Item - World of Warcraft over the Pendant of the Outcast Hero - Item - World of Warcraft, for instance. While you gain roughly 300 stamina and some valuable hit rating, your dodge and armor will actually decrease, and as I've stated above, the defense is basically wasted. The paltry increase it gives to your dodge chance still keeps it lower than the Pendant, which is beneficial in two forms instead of just one, to boot.

    I actually purchased the Gorget to see what the fuss was about. After equipping it and seeing it was a side-grade at best, I put in a ticket and the GMs were actually kind enough to refund my emblems. They don't do that lightly.

    I'm having no problems with my tanking right now. My guild is currently working on clearing Naxx (we're 7/15 after our first week in) on ten man. We don't have the numbers for 25s yet. So I realize part of this stuff is situational, but I'm really looking for some light to be shed on druids taking strength items for tanking and I'd love to hear a rational argument for druids taking defense items.

    Sure, I think I'm gearing the right way, but if I'm wrong, I want to know it, and I want to know why.

    If I'm hijacking this thread, I apologize, I would be more than happy to repost under a new topic.

  11. #11
    Hi Lucero,

    Due to the diminishing returns on dodge, some maths boffins worked out that defence actually scales better as an avoidance stat after about 50% dodge unbuffed. I wish I could find the article(s) on this, if you find them don't be shy in posting them

    As for the choice in tanking necks, the 'tank' neck boasts more avoidance and stamina than the 'dps' neck at certain levels of dodge and above. For the dodge that I have currently (~41% unbuffed) the tank neck gives me more avoidance than the DPS neck (the tank neck has 0.05% less dodge but 0.27% more miss), plus more health. This is due to the DR on the amount of dodge I have. I also lose 98 armour but gain 380 health by equipping the tank neck over the dps one.

    But for trash the DPS neck is more than adequate as a druid.

  12. #12
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    Don't forget that defense also increased the chance of an enemy missing you. So your getting dodge and chance to miss. Also, I said that if he was going for a set bonus.

  13. #13
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    Cool, thanks for the input. My unbuffed dodge is currently somewhere around 42% Guess I"m getting to the point I might need to start considering some defense stuff. I'll probably search for the articles you mention and wait for a bit closer to 50% though.

  14. #14
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    As Blackhand said defense both increases dodge and decreases miss. 1 defense rating is worth about 2/3 dodge rating for druids. Yes, Defense is inferior to agility and dodge as a mitigation stat but is still useful. The Defense/Stamina gem is probably the best pure mitigation gem to fill a yellow slot if you need to satisfy color requirements for the bonus; of course some druids will choose to use a threat based gem in that case instead.

    Looking at the two neck pieces in terms of avoidance:

    Gorget: 1.34% dodge/miss (.81% dodge from dodge rating, .27% dodge and .27% miss from defense rating)
    Pendent: 1.14% dodge from agility

    So the Gorget actually has .2% more total avoidance and 24 more stamina in exchange for about 100 armor.

  15. #15
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    I'm just got Heritage from 25-man Naxx and unbuffed I sit about 39% self-buffed and 31k hp. Not to shabby should I go after more dodge?

  16. #16
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    Yes, there is no point in where getting more dodge is bad, but just don't gimp your other stats.

  17. #17
    Also, it has been suggested that druids do not actively stack or seek out defense rating, rather, take it as it comes. Don't discount an item just because it has defense on it, but at the same time don't go gemming and enchanting for it.

    As for DR on dodge from agility, it was worked out that you would need a crazy amount of agility (I think a few thousand) before you could justify not seeking it out any longer. In other words, we won't need to worry about DR on agility on tier 7 and probably not even tier 8.

    Agility is still your friend!

  18. #18
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    Yeah I've gotten a few new things and got my dodge in bear self-buffed to about 40% and got my Defender's Code with both those trinkets popped I hit about 56% dodge and I'm lovin' it.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth View Post
    Gorget: 1.34% dodge/miss (.81% dodge from dodge rating, .27% dodge and .27% miss from defense rating)
    Pendent: 1.14% dodge from agility

    So the Gorget actually has .2% more total avoidance and 24 more stamina in exchange for about 100 armor.
    What's the formula on that 1.14% dodge from agility?

  20. #20
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    The relevant formulas for a level 80 feral druid with Survival of the Fittest and Heart of the Wild are:

    39.31 Agility=1% dodge

    39.35 Dodge=1% dodge

    61.48 Defense Rating=.5% dodge and .5% chance to be missed=1% avoidance

    The Defense rating comes from the more commonly shown value:
    30.74 Defense Rating=.25% chance to dodge/.25% chance to be missed/.25% change to parry/.25% chance to block
    Since druids can't parry or block this boils down to:
    30.74 Defense Rating=.25% chance to dodge/.25% chance to be missed
    Double both sides to bring it up to 1% avoidance to make it easy to compare with the other two stats.

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