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Thread: Frost Tank Spec 3.0.8

  1. #1
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    Frost Tank Spec 3.0.8

    Hey guys long time lurker new poster here.

    Anyway I was tanking as unholy for the past month until I started doing some 10/25 mans and had problems holding aggro on single boss mobs. I've been reading and trying to figure out what to do to fix these problems and have decided on respeccing frost since the 3.0.8 changes to KM and HB seem like they will help a great deal.

    I've come up with this spec:
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    My question is what do you guys think I should do with my last 3 points? I was considering throwing them all into Dark Conviction since my crit chance is pretty measily, about 6% in tank gear, but I haven't seen many people going into DC though so maybe it isn't the right choice. This leaves me with 2HWS and a final point for who knows what.

    Morbidity might be a possibility but I won't be using DC much with this build, and I'm not sure if I really need the shorter cooldown for d&d. I was hoping a spammable HB will be able to replace d&d in most situations.

    I don't need epidemic since this build uses a much shorter rotation and I will be using IT more often than in other rotations.

    Any other thoughts? Great site guys let's hope DK's get the buffs we need.

  2. #2
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    Virulence is a waste, pvp talent.
    you did not spec annihilation or Imp icy talons. build is fail with out those.

    You're talking about having threat issues when you're not even specing morbidity. Dropping constant DnD is one of the easiest ways to keep threat building through out a fight, single target or group pulls.

    One of the reasons Frost is viable is the aura. You skipped that as well.

    If you are going to spec more than 5 points into blood as a tank you should at least get rune tap and get the glyph of rune tap for 10% heals to the party. I cant count the number of times I've saved wipes with a simple 10% heal.

    You're wasting points in Killing Machine and Icy Reach.

    After looking at your gear, I noticed you dont have Swordshattering on your weapon. Pretty much req if you plan on tanking. DK tankin is about avoidance not absorbtion.

    A few suggestions on your gear.
    Helm: Ground Tremor Helm - Item - World of Warcraft

    Boots: Greaves of Ancient Evil - Item - World of Warcraft

    Chest: Heroes' Dreadnaught Breastplate - Item - World of Warcraft

    Hands: Heroes' Scourgeborne Handguards - Item - World of Warcraft / Fireproven Gauntlets - Item - World of Warcraft

    Bracers: Bracers of the Herald - Item - World of Warcraft

    A few ring suggestions over Band of torture:
    Titanium Earthguard Ring - Item - World of Warcraft
    Woeful Band - Item - World of Warcraft
    Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft



    You have been focusing too much on being a meat shield and not an avoidance tank, which is what being a death knight tank is all about.

    Take all of this as simple suggestion. Most of this gear is what I picked up prior to my Naxx 10/25 gear.

    Side note: why couldn't you hold threat as unholy. That's one of the few strong points of unholy. Could it be your rotation?

  3. #3
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    I beg to differ with m's assesment. Seems like a pretty straight forward tank spec focusing on HB over Obl for threat in the post-patch days.

    The aura is handy, but if you usually have a paladin or a (resto) druid along, you can get pretty much the same level of resistance from them. I certainly wouldn't call it mandatory in the face of potential threat increases if you have those types of issues.

    Killing Machine changing to a PPM will make it more valuable for 2-handed builds, and in normal heroic tank gear, should probably be good for another 4000-5000 DPMinute on it's own (the threat from which get boosted by Frost Presence). In that vein, Virulence is a decent choice, since HB, your main AoE threat skill, and IT which you depend on having up, both work off spellhit. Taking virulence means you are close to hitcapped for spells just with the melee hit cap. And hit is a good threat increaser.

    As your avoidance goes up, a good number of your melee white swings will be replaced by Rune Strikes, making haste, an already lackluster stat for DKs, even less desirable, as there is less to speed up. I see no problem in skipping Icy Talons with that in mind. Rune Cooldowns, rather than GCD, is usually the limiting factor in how fast you can use your skills.

    Taking Merciless Combat is a bit debatable. At that point in a fight, you should have a solid threat lead, but on the other hand, that is usually also when the DPS will start pulling out all the stops. If you want, you could switch them over to Endless Winter for a free disease on runners (allowing you to quickly grab them back with HB without maybe having to taunt) and always having an interrupt on hand. Personal style on that choice mostly.

    Icy reach is certainly something I like to see in a frost tanking build. Being able to pull from a safe distance can be gold.

    You don't have a lot of goodies for the group in this build, but you should be able to tank in it just fine on all levels of content, gear allowing.

    As for the final three points, Two-Handed Weapon is ok, though as you depend less on strikes doesn't have quite the trickle-down effect that someone using Obl alot would see. Morbidity is probably the best value, giving you access to D&D on pretty much all trash pulls (remember D&D does increased threat as well). You may not always have a use for it, but at least it'll be up when you do. I'm not really sold on Acclimation, and certain alot of theorycrafters find it too undependable and situational to be of real use, but if you really don't know what to do with your last three points, any sort of mitigation is better than nothing.

  4. #4
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    I'd like to add a third point of view on that and remind something to the first poster here.

    First of all this is my first post (and first time I think i've something interesting to add to a discution) and i'd like to thanks you all for the great debats that i've been able to read here.

    That said, let go with the template. The thing I'd like to say is that I won't ever get out of Obli for single target threat. Obli is just, to me, our first damage (and threat) generator after RS on a single mob. It strikes harder, crit much, than HB. However HB still gets my harder crits but really on the average Obli stikes harder. Also remind that the miss on Obli is less than the miss on HB even with Virulence.

    That said if you want a spec running around HB why not. Fisrt of all I'll definitly go for Epidemic, that seems to me to be a great thret generator as you can delay the stacking of your disease by some seconds and so add another HB to your cycle (and as you got 3 extra points in your spec, you can do this).
    As a tank not getting the frost aura (even if other players can pop up their) is something I won't do. My aura is there as a back up, and sometimes as something not the best but that we can use. I've done a 10 men Saphiron with no droods and only one pal, so the combo my aura + his devo was something better than his frost aura to us. And if the pal dies, tour aura is still here. For 2 points, I'll definitly go for this, rather than merciless combat (as said above). same goes for Deathchill. I mean go with it at the opening okay, but then do you really need the extra crit after that ? And do you really need this crit then ?

    Last but not least, I don't thnik taht haste is a waste, specially in our specs. I mean, right I won't ever gem for haste, nor I'll take a weapon with haste over a weapon with pseudo def stats (exp, hit or agi for example). But I don't think that totally ignoring haste is really a good thing. I've no maths for this, but my fellings are that the more we can hit, the more we can RS. For example I got a 3.5 sword, that mean in regular conditions I can do a RS once every 3.5 secondes. Let's say that the boss is hitting me every 2 secondes, and i go with a nice dodge/parry sequence, let's say 10 in a row, during that 20 secondes I'll just swing 6 RS out of the 10 I would have been able to do. Now i got that haste in my tree, so my sing is not 3.5 anymore but near 2.8. So in that 20 secondes I would have been able to throw 8 RS, and that is something I definetly want to do. This is assuming you have a BoSanctuary of course. I won't say that haste is something we should ever focus on, but if it's here why not, it's not the best tps stat but we can use it to something. And getting Imp. Icy Talon may let an other totem for you cham if you don't have many in your raid.

  5. #5
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    I've been frost for a couple of months now and have MT'd all of naxx (10 man) with it. With everything i have read AFTER the patch hits KM seems like the way to go, personally (unless i try it and hate it) i'll be pulling Obliterate off of my toolbar and just using HB instead. To me since HB has the advantage of not taking armor into the equasion and since it will now be "spammable" it seems like it will be a better ability for gaining/holding aggro... Not that i have problems with that currently, with the occasional exception of Grobbulus where the pally OT will holy shield the oozes and occasionally hit the boss...

    The other abilities not in your build really come down to raid make up and personal prefrence... Frost aura is kind of nice if you never raid with druids... (though i think i'll be dumping it after the patch since we take a forest with us) and improved icy touch is amazing if you raid with a lot of melee and have no shaman (and a raid with glowing hands = neato :P ) Personally i look at the talents and think which would benefit the raid as a whole (eg help me keep aggro, help the melee do more dps, and help keep people alive...even if only slightly)
    Hi there i'm a big Zombie-cow and i'll be facetanking for you today...

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    Going back to the OP.

    Spec looks very very solid and with the 3 remaining points not place go into Epidemic and still have one point for either CE (which might be nice in the patch) or possible lower CD on DG.

    KM will require testing after the patch to figure it out because it has been broken till about a day or so ago. Its a choice between KM and Talon.

    (Dont under estimate the value of haste as a tank. RS is my top damage most fights or a close 2nd. If you carry a prot pally, haste can be a beautiful thing, especially if your unholy.
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrke View Post
    That said, let go with the template. The thing I'd like to say is that I won't ever get out of Obli for single target threat. Obli is just, to me, our first damage (and threat) generator after RS on a single mob. It strikes harder, crit much, than HB. However HB still gets my harder crits but really on the average Obli stikes harder. Also remind that the miss on Obli is less than the miss on HB even with Virulence.
    Please show me any math or ingame stats that prove what you say; because I did it and it show the exact opposite:
    Average damage: HB win
    Max hit: HB win
    Miss+dodge+parry: HB win

    I did some theory maths AND I verified it ingame; on all my raid I did as a frost tank (was unholy before), that's what I saw in our stats (WowWebstats).

    And that's on live, so it will get only better with the new KM.


    As for epidemic, it's useless with the rotation we will use with a HB spec; IT/HB/HB/BS/FS repeat; you dont need epidemic.


    @Doom: virulence is a must have for this spec since 3/4 of our rotation is spell-based (IT and 2 HB)

    Frost aura is 2 points wasted if you get any druid, pal or shammy in your raid imo.

    KM is a must have for an HB oriented frost tank.

    Icy reach is great to be able to cast IT and HB (basicly the most of our rotation) at distance; not only to pull but for every fight when the boss is moving.

    @Maegul: I agree that merciless combat isnt great but the other place you could put this 2 point arent either. Endless winter? meh; Annihilation? the crit only affect melee strike so meh.

    To the OP:

    I will go with the exact same spec, and I am not sure where to put this 3 points either.
    If 2H spec affect our spell (IT and HB) then it's good place to put 2 of them. And the 3rd in rune tap or Hungering cold (not very great but I dunno where to put the last one).
    For Morbidity, DnD (+PS) still make more threat than 2 HB if we dont count crit; but the difference is not that huge and I think with the crit of KM, HB will be better.
    I am comparing 2 HB for one DnD+PS because if we use DnD our rotation will be:
    IT-DnD-PS-BS-FS // IT-HB-HB-BS-FS repeat
    and without:
    IT-HB-HB-BS-FS repeat

    I will try to test 2H spec on the PTR to see if he increase IT and HB damage.

  8. #8
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    If I had to choose between KM and Icy Talons I'd rather have Icy Talons and Imp Icy Talons for the increased auto attack speed / rune strike speed. I primarily focus on using Howling blast over Obliterate even now. Rune strike generally will make up the bulk of your damage while tanking (this will drop some since they are cutting 50% of the damage out of it but it'll add more threat) thus also making it generally your highest threat production tool over a fight.

    The only problem I find with the frost tree in general is there tends to be a couple bottlenecks in the tree that force you to take one talent or another, in this case points 17-20 need to either go into KM, or Icy Talons or split between a few other talents that generally are not to useful (Runic Power mastery/Nerves of Cold Steel/Icy Reach) and Annihilation (which you don't really need for this build) on your way to getting to the 21 point talents.


    I would recommend putting those other 3 points into Morbidity however as that 15% cooldown is the main benefit to it especially on fights where adds come into the picture. Icy Reach is really only useful for PvP/Arena to be honest.

    I'm going to see exactly how effective the new KM is before I seriously consider spec'ing to it. Though if KM does prove to be useful I might finally spec to something like this which allows me to pick up both Icy Talons and KM at the loss of Merciless Combat, Deathchill, and Frost aura from my current build:
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

  9. #9
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    I've been glacing at some theorycraft on the whole Obl vs HB and while it's situational and the difference not completely spec-breaking either way, the general conclusion I draw from is:

    Obliterate will outperform HB if:
    You have a very good weapon (200+ dps)
    You have most, if not all, talents that supports strikes and Obl directly. This means stuff like 2-handed specialization, annihilation, KM, Rime, Subversion and GoG plus the Obliterate glyph.

    So just relying on HB when you get into things looks like the "smarter" choice from a pure damage perspective, but later you may want to take a second look at it.

    I'm personally thinking of skipping Annihilation, but worry that, as my gear improves, my single-target threat will suffer for it.Time will tell on that one. I agree around tier 6 in Frost you get sort of forced to throw a few points in something just to get further down the tree, and Merciless Combat is as good (or mediocre) a choice as any.

    Haste I still wouldn't take if we look strictly at personal benefit, but sometimes you take things just to give a raid boost, and for many other melee classes haste is great, so you could "take one for the team" and go for Impr. Icy Talons over KM too. I think they will both be valid choices.
    Whether it is worth it for the extra RS I think comes down to how your RP generation is (there's a change coming to that as well and I'm not sure how it will affect that. Being able to RS more is pointless if you find yourself RP-starved).

    Frost Aura: Well, I get the whole backup argument. I do tend to not make specs based on assumptions about who is going, and especially for 10-man that can be a bit dicey. So I wouldn't recommend against it either.

    Edit: Without trying to hijack the thread, I've also been toying with this build: Frost with VotTW. It'll hurt in the threat department, losing Virulence, Tundra Stalker and most of GoG but you gain extra stamina (easily 70-90), a spot of strength and some magic mitigation that I think will scale better than Acclimation. It may not perform well at higher gear levels, but in lesser geared groups where I think threat isn't that big of an issue, but survival can be, it may be worth it.
    Last edited by Maegul; 01-13-2009 at 09:43 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by xKhellendrosx View Post
    I'm going to see exactly how effective the new KM is before I seriously consider spec'ing to it. Though if KM does prove to be useful I might finally spec to something like this which allows me to pick up both Icy Talons and KM at the loss of Merciless Combat, Deathchill, and Frost aura from my current build:
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    Well I tested the new KM on PTR a bit, and it really proc a lot (with a 2H weapon at least); I personnaly wouldnt consider a spec without it, past patch, it will assure a lot of HB and FS crit.

    Your spec with icy talon and KM is interesting though; especially since haste mean more white attack and then more KM proc.

    Just a few thing about it:
    - you dont have virulence; with a heavy spell rotation like we will use on a HB spec, 3% spell hit is great.
    - you got epidemic; if you use a short rotation, I dont see any use of it.
    - Icy reach: you said it's a pvp only talent, I dont agree; there is many fight where I am glad I have a 30y IT and HB. A few exemple: Guth if you are kiting the adds, noth for adds again, etc. Ok it's mainly when you are not MT, but personnally we try to rotate our tank so I wont be always MT for sure.
    A comparison come in mind, how many time you though "damn this taunt is too short!", I got the same feeling about IT and HB without icy reach.


    But to take your idea of taking both Icy talon and KM, which I like, I may modify my spec to this one: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I only loose deathchill over my spec, not a big lost (and merciless combat but I only took it to fill the gap)

    @maegul: I know that with a very good weapon, every talents for it and the glyph, OB is better.
    I am not sure a 200 DPS weapon is enough though, exept if you use the OB sigil too.

    But it's a big payoff for a small increase, and all this talents points put elsewhere will make up for the difference I think (it's at least 8 talents points).


    PS: I though about what I said for 2H spec, and it stupid, I dont see how it could affect IT and HB; it increase the DPS of the weapon, HB and IT does not scale with it, so it's useless for this kind of built.
    Last edited by Feanorr; 01-13-2009 at 10:05 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanorr View Post
    Well I tested the new KM on PTR a bit, and it really proc a lot (with a 2H weapon at least); I personnaly wouldnt consider a spec without it, past patch, it will assure a lot of HB and FS crit.


    Just a few thing about it:
    - you dont have virulence; with a heavy spell rotation like we will use on a HB spec, 3% spell hit is great.
    - you got epidemic; if you use a short rotation, I dont see any use of it.
    - Icy reach: you said it's a pvp only talent, I dont agree; there is many fight where I am glad I have a 30y IT and HB. A few exemple: Guth if you are kiting the adds, noth for adds again, etc. Ok it's mainly when you are not MT, but personnally we try to rotate our tank so I wont be always MT for sure.
    A comparison come in mind, how many time you though "damn this taunt is too short!", I got the same feeling about IT and HB without icy reach.


    But to take your idea of taking both Icy talon and KM, which I like, I may modify my spec to this one: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I only loose deathchill over my spec, not a big lost (and merciless combat but I only took it to fill the gap)
    If its a PPM system I think the most its supposed to be able to proc is 5 times at least that was their intentions when they changed it.

    As to that build I made:

    I like Virulence, and if the cooldown coming off pestilence is good enough for grabbing adds I might drop Morbidity and pick Virulence back up. While raiding I haven't really noticed many issue with misses though, I do raid with a shadow priest +3% hit, and I use hit food as well. Though part of me things I'll finally swap out several of my +Str +Def gems with some +Expertise + Hit ones.

    I just like keeping epidemic in my builds as I like that extra 6 second window before I have to IT/PS/Pestilence again in an AoE situation. Though it does cut down on potential Rime procs.

    I typically do not use the same opening rotation that you do in most cases, if I need to pull I tend to use death grip to do it and not IT. And then I follow Death Grip with DnD, PS, IT, Pestilence.

    Icy Reach- As to the two fights you mentioned. On Noth I'm generally always the main tank, or we have the raid positioned so that I'm dropping DnD near the boss and in the path the adds are going to be running (most time they have healer threat) so that I can pick them up with and keep them near the boss so we can AoE them all down at once. On Gluth we tend to have a dps hunter or DK that kite the adds as both tanks are on Gluth and trading taunts.

  12. #12
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    Feanorr, the revised build with Icy Talons might be worth a shot if the haste is able to proc KM more often. If not then I don't really see any need for it. I guess we will see once 3.0.8 goes live and more tests are run, but supposedly it is a set PPM with a limit on how many you can have to nurf the 32/39 spec. If that turns out to be true I doubt I will spec Icy Talons.

    I'm surprised nobody has considered my last 3 points going into Dark Conviction since it raises the crit of white, spells, and abilities. I think it might be a decent boost to my dps and threat by throwing the last 3 in there.

    Anyway thanks to everyone who replied and had an idea of what I was talking about. I read my first reply from Doom and I was like uh? lol

    I guess at this point I'm most excited to see how KM will work. Maybe these few changes with the revised Frost Presence will give us what we need.

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    Generally as a tank you have a pretty terrible crit chance which I why I overlook something like Dark Conviction.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by xKhellendrosx View Post
    If its a PPM system I think the most its supposed to be able to proc is 5 times at least that was their intentions when they changed it.
    There are many post about how PPM work (on EJ at least); it's based on base speed, meaning that if you have a 3.0 weapon (for easier math), a 5ppm proc will have 25% to proc each time you swing (white damage); 60/3=20, 5/20=0,25.
    After that if you got some haste from any source, the chance to proc by swing will remain 25% but since you will swing more often, you will get more proc per min.
    At least it's how ppm work since it have been introduced so exept if they make a special one for KM, it should still be the same.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanorr View Post
    There are many post about how PPM work (on EJ at least); it's based on base speed, meaning that if you have a 3.0 weapon (for easier math), a 5ppm proc will have 25% to proc each time you swing (white damage); 60/3=20, 5/20=0,25.
    After that if you got some haste from any source, the chance to proc by swing will remain 25% but since you will swing more often, you will get more proc per min.
    At least it's how ppm work since it have been introduced so exept if they make a special one for KM, it should still be the same.
    This is how Ghostcrawler explained it in this thread:
    MMO-Champion BlueTracker - New Killing Machine

    It is on a proc per minute system, 1/2/3/4/5 at 5 ranks. It procs based on autoattack hits.

    It will still benefit DW, but not nearly as much. The DW build was just outperforming 2H DKs (and the rest of the world).

  16. #16
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    hum I dont know now; not because of the GC post (cause it doesnt say anything against what I said) but I digged a bit more on EJ to find the correct link and I found some posts saying it's based on base speed and some saying it's based on current hasted speed, so meh

    But anyway, I think Icy talons and improved icy talons is a better place to put does remaining point than merciless combat and deathchill; it's 3 more points I know but we had 3 points left over so ^^

    The best place I could see this point in a HB oriented rotation (so no DnD) is Dark conviction; so 3% crit, 1 crit every 2min and 12% damage at 35% health versus 25% haste (not counting the raid benefit if you dont have a shaman).
    My white swing is still around 15% of my damage so we are looking at a 3,75% damage increase with the haste. Plus more Runestrike if we have the RP for it.

    Well I guess it's a personnal choice at this points, it wont be game breaking either way (or it will need more precise maths that I wont do to see what is better ^^)

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    I did a few more test on PTR with the short rotation (IT/HB/HB/BS/FS and repeat) and I wonder about another talent: Rime

    2 things about it:

    - First it doesnt proc a lot, even with an IT every 10 sec. That's about 1 proc per min (a bit less).

    - Second, when it does proc, it make a problem to refresh Bladed barrier; since I use only one BS by rotation, I need the second HB that use a death rune, to make BB proc on the BS.

    I will describe the rotation step by step to make it more clear:

    - IT: 1 frost used
    - 1st HB: 2nd frost +1 unholy
    - 2nd HB: 2nd unholy + 1 death rune
    -
    BS: 2nd blood >>>> Bladed barier proc
    - FS

    And repeat.

    On the second rotation, I got 2-3 sec left on BB when it refresh. It's all good if I dont have any miss or parry/dodge; I can even maintain it with one or 2 of them, but not much more.

    But if Rime proc, it mean I have one more HB to make to use this death rune, and if anything miss or are being dodged/parried, I am screwed.


    So I dont know if the small proc of rime and the +15% crit for IT worth the risk to not have BB up at all time.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanorr View Post
    Please show me any math or ingame stats that prove what you say; because I did it and it show the exact opposite:
    Average damage: HB win
    Max hit: HB win
    Miss+dodge+parry: HB win
    I can show you this Wow Web Stats which is the main reason why i wont go for HB unless there are two mobs. I can't be sure that all the night was spent in tanking gear, but I do find that HB is hitting smoother than Obli.

    Once again, no math, and no HB support too, so maybe with some other things we can say that HB > Obli, but not so sure. You can armory me my stuff shouldn't have change by much theses last days.

    If you got maths I'll be glad to have a look at it so I can find what is wrong in them or in what I do.

    PS: not sure you can see the WWS report for that night, and even if you see it the names won't be the real one, so look for the tank DK (not the dps one), I'm the 13th on the dps chart.

    Edit :
    And I've re read your last post and understand what you mean. You said that even with 1 IT per 10 second it seems that rime proc at 1 ppm, that seems to be right with its 15% proc chance. So Once every minute you may be annoyed by a rime proc that push you using one more HB in your rotation.
    Let say that you got a death rune at the begining of your tanking, you can easily get it. So your rotation is :
    IT (FR)
    HB (free)
    HB (FR + UR)
    BS (BR)
    HB (DR + UR) and start of BB

    This rime proc is not a very big deal as this just delay the start of BB by 1.5 sec. This can be of importance, but not as much as if you were doing something like IT PS BS BS so you have your BB up from the start (or an IT HB BS BS PS to begin with some good thret on the mob, the time he gets close to you).
    What if a rime proc after the first IT ?
    So after your last cycle, you got some 4 seconds to wait for your runes, and so when the first rune will reactivate you'll have BB at 4.5 second left. Then you just sitck to your rotation :
    IT (FR)
    HB (free)
    HB (FR + UR)
    BS (BR)
    HB(DR + UR)
    And then be 1.5 sec late on your timer. This is not taking in account the shortest cooldown of your runes, so you should be 0.5 second before your BB fades. Then you say that getting a miss in that should waste your entire cycle and not allowing you to get a full lenght BB. This may be, but if you miss something I think your solution should be in BS twice in a row then PS. This will do less threat but won't destroy your cycle and you'll be able to come back to your cycle on the next rune return.

    And the same problem appears if you miss something even without rime proc. Let's say that you came with that output : IT - HB - BS - HB (miss). That last move leaves you with a BR and an UR and the only move you can do is BS then PS, then restart your cycle. So the rime proc dosn't seems to be the core problem, as this problem can occur without a rime proc.

    Now the real question is, without any use of Obli, is rime interesting ? If rime was buffing your HB crit chance, i'll say take it, now what to do without rime as a spec ? As you said above the points can go in 2H spec iff this is buffing HB for you, or go with Merciless combat / Death Chill / Endless winter. I put Endless winter as having a free interrup could be nice for some fight.

    As for the haste, if you got some Bo Sanctuary (never remind the damn abreviation for this one) every time you dodge or parry you gain the RP for RS so the effect of haste is really visible on that. That's plus if you don't raid often with a windfury totem maid me choose the haste option.
    Last edited by Tarrke; 01-14-2009 at 05:21 AM. Reason: link and precision

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    There is plenty of good feedback for spec here, plenty of personal preferences as well.

    Always, Improved Icy Talons and Frost Aura are greatly reduced in value if you aren't offering something new to your group, or allowing your group to shift other resources (shamans drop other totems, pallies use other auras, etc).

    As for haste and DK's, the talents that increase you swing speed are flat damage increases, though they do come through additional swings (which means more opportunities for both RS and for parries. Generally I see more benefit than harm). Haste on gear is a different matter. DK's get less value from haste on gear than about anyone else. Up front it does provide some more of that increased swing speed, it does not provide any other benefit as nothing can reduce our GCD except for our presences. Because of that I'll favor any and every other stat above haste (and armor pen for similar limited value), though I'm not going to avoid it all costs either.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrke View Post
    I can show you this Wow Web Stats which is the main reason why i wont go for HB unless there are two mobs. I can't be sure that all the night was spent in tanking gear, but I do find that HB is hitting smoother than Obli.
    Well I dont know how to link my Wow WEb stats (I dont have a acount there, it's one of my guildmate), but I have the exact opposite of you.
    Reasons? I can see a few:

    - You have the OB sigil (and maybe the glyph too?); it increase his damage by a lot, definetly.
    - you dont have KM, even now it increase the crit rate of HB a bit.
    - you dont have Bladed armor, who increase our PA by a lot especially in frost presence, and HB scale better with PA than OB I think.


    Here is some maths (I am basing my math for OB on this post Frost Rotation, RPM and You..., just taking different number more accurate for tank):

    Using a titansteel destroyer and 3000 PA (that's about what I have in tank gear in raid):

    For OB:

    For easier comparison, I take OB with only one disease; anyway it seem that a rotation with one disease is better even with OB (that's what I read on EJ anyway)

    Base OB = (3000/14) x 3.3 + avg weapon damage + 292 +146
    base OB = 1779

    Multiplier: tundra stalker (+10%), 2H spec (4%)

    OB = 1779 x 1.1 x 1.04 = 2035

    A sundered boss have around 25% damage reduction (again I trust Haskel for that, if he is wrong, tell me):

    OB hit = 2035 x 0.75 = 1526
    OB crit = 1831 x 2.45 = 3738

    If we add the glyph (+20%):

    OB hit = 1831
    OB crit = 4485

    If we add the Sigil:

    OB hit = 2251
    OB crit = 5514


    So for HB now:

    The AP coef for HB is 0,1 according to EJ (DPS Compendium - Elitist Jerks)


    Base avg HB = 270 + (3000 x 0.1) = 570

    Multiplier: IT on mob (x2), Glacier rot (+10%), Black ice (+30%), tundra stalker (+10%)

    HB = 570 x 2 x 1.1 x 1.3 x 1.1 = 1793

    To compare with a sundered boss, we should consider the boss also have a curse of elements (or similar), so +10%

    HB hit = 1972
    HB crit = 4831


    So if my maths are good (and i am not sure of that) what it show is that without the OB glyph and sigil, HB clearly win; with only the glyph, it still win but not by much; with both, OB is clearly ahead.
    But then we should take into consideration what glyph and sigil we can use instead.
    Another thing that I didnt take into consideration (intentionally) is the crit; I know that OB crit more often on live (but at a cost of many talents) and it will be easy to make some math for OB crit.

    But for HB it's another story. First I dont know if it's based on melee crit or on spell crit; I know it's a spell, but a spell that is based on AP. Plus what I see on my stats, and even yours, show me a crit largely superior than our spell crit chance (and more close to our melee crit chance).
    Second, I dont know how to factor KM; even on live it increase the % crit a lot (I got 31% crit on HB during my last Naxx 25 raid), and the new one is even better

    If you can double check my math, it would be great.


    Feanorr
    Last edited by Feanorr; 01-15-2009 at 10:42 AM.

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