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Thread: Heroes Surrender vs Wall of Terror

  1. #41
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    I think people may be underselling the Wall of Terror a bit.

    Yes, the Block Rating is overbudget and less useful than normal avoidance, but it still contributes some resonable level of value. That paired with the increased armor makes it a competitive option from my point of view.

    Don't undersell the armor difference, it's actually quite substantial.

    Shields don't have a large item budget compared to the primary slots and most of their benefit is actually the innate armor on them which increases with ilevel. Realistically, the mods on shields are not really the most important part about them. New shields in new dungeons are generally a massive upgrade to tanking not because of the mods, but because of the armor increase.

    As showed in the EJ thread about item level mechanics, you'll see shields are on the 3rd tier of mod budgets, equal to Bracers, Cloaks, Necks, and Rings.

    However, if you look at comparable slots by mod budget, you'll see that none of those have huge levels (and Rings with none!) of innate armor on them. Going from ilevel 200 -> 213, a Bracer gains a whole 15 armor and a cloak gains mighty 4 armor.

    On the other hand, the Wall of Terror has 168 armor more than the ilevel 213 shields, which in item-budget terms adds a huge amount of value to the item.

    Although having a bit lower Stamina (which could be a problem, depending on the situation or the other pieces of gear) the overall avoidance/survivability of the Wall of Terror is probably the best of all 3 shields when factoring in average blocks (even on 40k+ base damage boss attacks) and armor contributions.

    The Barricade of Eternity is probably the best 'all-around' piece, especially if you need more expertise, but it is quite a bit lower than either of the other two in terms of actual mitigation.

    In regard to Hero's Surrender vs. Wall of Terror--Wall of Terror has slightly higher mitigation and notably higher TPS, Hero's Surrender has slightly higher HP. Personally, I prefer the Wall of Terror in almost every case, as when pushing 30k+ unbuffed HP, the loss of a bit of HP is worth less to me than increased assured reduction from armor and the contribution from block% (which, while not as perfect as pure avoidance, is still notable when pushing 1.4k block in raids.)

    In the end, though, they come out rather close to eachother in value. Although that is a testament to the Wall of Terror's bad design (being that it is the next tier up in ilevels, it should be a lot better than it is)--but the brute force of the armor does help make up for it quite a bit.

  2. #42
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    Barricade of Eternity > Hero's Surrender > Wall of Terror.

    As to this thought that Parry is good for Warriors. No, you're wrong.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    Barricade of Eternity > Hero's Surrender > Wall of Terror.

    As to this thought that Parry is good for Warriors. No, you're wrong.
    Other than Stamina, what is the argument for Hero's Surrender?

    If you run the numbers, even against a hard-hitting boss at 2s+ attack speeds you will most likely take less damage with the Wall of Terror equipped than Hero's Surrender and you will have notably higher TPS with the increased Block Value and Attack Power.

    Wall of Terror is basically superior in every way save 21 Stamina.

    It gives far more flexibility in regard to 540 Defense-capping and swapping to lower-Defense pieces with higher TPS or avoidance, the mitigation through armor is more reliable than normal avoidance and just as effective, and it avoids the nasty bloat on Parry's item budget and diminishing returns.

    Barricade I can recommend if you want more Expertise, as it's a solid design otherwise. But, honestly, I would rate Hero's Surrender as the worst of the 3, at least for Warriors. Even on bosses, I find the argument that 0.25% avoidance is better than 2% block and 0.15% guaranteed armor reduction to be quite tenuous.

    The Wall of Terror seems to be coming ahead by about 0.07% total average melee damage mitigation against even hard-hitting bosses with 40k base melee swings. (And 0.15% ahead vs. the Barricade of Eternity.)
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 02-06-2009 at 09:14 AM.

  4. #44
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    Wall of Terror
    7 Str
    168 Armor
    5 Block Value
    13 Defense
    31 Block

    Hero's Surrender
    21 Sta
    6 Dodge
    30 Parry

    1. 168 Armor + 8 BV vs 21 Stamina
    2. 13 Defense + 31 Block vs 6 Dodge and 30 Parry

    The stamina wins #1 pretty handily and while you could make an argument for #2 to go to the block side, it's a pretty minor advantage if it is at all. So, I'd give the nod to Hero's Surrender b/c of the Stamina advantage illustrated in point #1.

    Hero's Surrender isn't leaps and bounds ahead of Wall of Terror, but I'd say it's ahead nonetheless.

  5. #45
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    My only major point is simply that many people undersell the mitigation on the Wall of Terror, because part of it is unsexy armor and part of it is unsexy block.

    However, it is a fact that in almost every case the Wall of Terror has more mitigation/threat than Hero's Surrender and a lot more mitigation than Barricade of Eternity. (It is also almost the same TPS if you are soft-capped on Expertise already, with the Barricade mostly coming out ahead if you still have dodge% to remove.)

    While one could make the argument that 21 stamina is a make-or-break, I find the higher mitigation plus the added headroom to the ever-present 540 def cap issue is worth the shift.

    My objection in all these threads is that people ignore the armor and the block and seem to say that an exceptionally minor amount of avoidance such as 0.25% will somehow beat 168 armor and 2% block--which is not my experience in any figures I've looked at.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 02-06-2009 at 11:31 AM.

  6. #46
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    Yeh, i have heroes and it's amazing as a full on avoidance shield but if wall dropped i'd roll on it in a heartbeat, it's just a flat out higher ilvl shield with good stats, the loss of stam is tough but i think worth it in current content.

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  7. #47
    Parry. Been said before but it'll be said again. Warriors DO NOT FAVOR PARRY!! Parry isn't a bad stat but compared to Dodge it's inferior. The auto swing bonus from parry should be negligible io. The rating to 1% conversion's the highest out of avoidance stats. And the Diminishing returns imposed on Parry make it fall behind Dodge's diminishing returns faster.

    Been stated before but Block Rating is a convenience. Unless you're multi tanking full sets of adds or a boss that hits really fast Block rating is low on the list of stat priorities. Most progression bosses that cause trouble for Tanks are the slower hard hitting bosses that drastically reduce Block's usefulness.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    Yeh, i have heroes and it's amazing as a full on avoidance shield but if wall dropped i'd roll on it in a heartbeat, it's just a flat out higher ilvl shield with good stats, the loss of stam is tough but i think worth it in current content.
    Ok ppl, stop being crazy!!

    WoT >>>>>> Heros

    Why?

    more dps .. less stm/avoid is the argument right?
    You can tank ALL content in a full set of block gear, so thus stm/avoid usefullness trends to ZERO

    Also, When I'm pking pesky rogues who try and take my ore / and or aoe faming, my block set does a hell lot more than dodge.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwegburt View Post
    Parry. Been said before but it'll be said again. Warriors DO NOT FAVOR PARRY!! Parry isn't a bad stat but compared to Dodge it's inferior. The auto swing bonus from parry should be negligible io. The rating to 1% conversion's the highest out of avoidance stats. And the Diminishing returns imposed on Parry make it fall behind Dodge's diminishing returns faster.

    Been stated before but Block Rating is a convenience. Unless you're multi tanking full sets of adds or a boss that hits really fast Block rating is low on the list of stat priorities. Most progression bosses that cause trouble for Tanks are the slower hard hitting bosses that drastically reduce Block's usefulness.
    What progression bosses are you speaking of, because all content has been cleared and you do not know what is coming in uldar.

  10. #50
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    i only have WoT atm, however of all three sheilds i would see my self using heros the least. in current content atleast.

    WoT = trash
    BoE = bosses
    Heroes = maybe patchwerk?

  11. #51
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    Why is no one talking about block? i kno it is not pure avoidance but it helps ALOT imo. From my min being a palli tank i kno that we r blocking beasts and my parry is low (16.89%) i currently using Barricade of Eternity for MT and i have Hero's surrendor in my inventory and imo i like to use hero's for trash because of the high avoidance and yes it has more avoidance.

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