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Thread: Shielding a Prot. Warrior before a pull a no no?

  1. #1
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    Shielding a Prot. Warrior before a pull a no no?

    Is it truly a no no now to shield a warrior pre pull?
    From my understanding the threat mechanics have changed since Lich King was released. I have healed as a Disc priest all the way up to Malygos heroic and have been shielding tanks this way from day one of the release of LK.
    Today I lead a raid into 10 man Naxx to gear up some of our newer members and the lead tank for the raid a prot warrior was adamant about not shielding him before any pull or anytime he needed to get rage for threat generation....that is the first time since the LK release that any tank has had an issue with it and I promptly told him that. So what is the current situation with prot warrior threat generation and does shielding effect rage build up that much or does this prot warrior now know what he is doing? he especially said it was an issue during the four horseman when the two front tank have to trade bosses....

  2. #2
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    I have never had a probelm with it myself, fairly easy to get a decent amount initial threat on bosses nowdays. I don't know the mechanics behind PW:S tho.

  3. #3
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    I'd say nothing has changed, we still need to be hit to generate rage, so being shielded on the pull means very little rage to work with.

  4. #4
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    Shielding a warrior will make him absorb damage, thus until the shield is broken the only rage he will be getting (or most of it anyhow) will be from his white hits.

    White hits are not normally sufficient to keep up a proper threat rotation.
    Thus at the start of fights (especially if the dps like to start right off as they always do) it is better to let the tank take a hit to get rage and begin his normal threat rotation.

    There are only a few reasons I can think of that your other tanks have not complained. Those being:
    1. The dps are better trained and as such wait for a sufficient amount of threat.
    2. The tanks get blessing of sanctuary a buff that greatly increases the amount of rage, mana, runic power that a tank recieves during a fight.
    3. They simply havent noticed it on their buff bar.

    To simplify, try not to shield before a pull, (except maybe on patchwerk).

  5. #5
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    Typically, you should get enough rage off of bloodrage and charge to get whatever initial abilities you need in. If you've got borrowed time and a lot of spellpower, I can see it adversely affecting rage gain from trash that doesn't hit very hard.

    But you're probably talking what.. 3500 damage? 4000? So that lasts through maybe two swings off a boss, assuming you get hit. And I think that could be where the problem lies for some people. If you're avoiding hits while you're shielded, you're not getting rage, and you're not diminishing the shield for times when you will take hits.

    During an encounter shouldn't be an issue for rage generation.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churles View Post
    3. They simply havent noticed it on their buff bar.
    It can't be much of an issue if you don't notice it.

  7. #7
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    I prefer not to be shielding before pulling, but it's not too big of a deal.

  8. #8
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    I think it's best to take it simply: if you notice the tank taking quite a bit of damage, then PW:S.

    I personally pull (single-targets) with a ranged+Heroic Throw+Charge combo, using Bloodrage if I find that I don't have enough rage for a Shield Slam--so I've never had any trouble with rage at the start of the fight, ever.
    I've got more plate than your grandma's cupboard.

  9. #9
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    As already said...

    It ofc. has the same effect as before, the thing is though, protection warriors has many abilities to get his rage up initially by other means, and when first its running, threat generation seems to be no issue.

    But other than that, it does ofc affect his abillity to get rage.

    Why he claims it's an issue during switching the front bosses on four horsemen I really don't know, this is not a pull, so at that point he should already have sufficient rage. And with the way taunt works today, something must be wrong if he things it's an issue in that exact transition, either he doesn't know how taunt works today, or something else is wrong IMO.

    However I don't have much endgame tank experience as a warrior enymore, my own ain't leveled up and I only briefly "borrowed" another's because he couldn't go on a Naxx 25 day, and I was already saved on my DK...

  10. #10
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    What Tristessa said. With rage from charge/bloodrage and heroic throw costing no rage, even if you dont aactually take dmg for the first couple swings shouldnt be a huge deal. I also have talented/glyphed for 8 rage thunderclaps. Usually a throw, shield slam, TC and then a cheap revenge will buy me enough time to be brimming with rage. You can also berserker rage when you run in to boost your rage gain from dmg.
    Galushi - 85 Dwarf Warrior - Shadowsong US Alliance.
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  11. #11
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    Rage-based tanks are the only ones that do not like to be shielded on the pull.

    Paladins need to be hit to receive mana back from heals, but unlike a warrior or druid, their resource bar starts off full, so shielding them on the pull is fine. Shielding warriors is fine, just wait 10 seconds.

  12. #12
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    DPS race = don't shield on pull.

    Survival fight = it's ok to shield on pull.

    A warrior tank should be able to gain aggro with shield, but if you have overzealous dps or need maximum dps it isn't optimal.

    Shields after ~10 seconds are great.

    Rage starvation sucks.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churles View Post
    To simplify, try not to shield before a pull, (except maybe on patchwerk).
    I threw my shoe (thrown main hand axes look like shoes to my guild somehow, and did even before the bush incident) to pull patchy and then charged it as is my typical "I need rage" sort of thing to do... and it hit me with a normal attack and a hateful (because I was the only one in melee range for a split second there), making me dead.

    So... I don't charge patchwerk anymore.

    If your MT is dumb enough to try charging patchwerk more than once in his life, you might have no choice but to PW:S him and give a full rack of HoTs, a PoM, and try to time a greater heal, oh and have a finger on your threat dump(s).

    Probably easier just to ask him kindly to not charge though.

    On the other hand, when off-tanking patchwerk I've found that I frequently have to stop attacking completely or I'll pull agro. So making the MT even more rage starved by PW:Sing on them, would kind of be a dick move on your part, in my opinion.

    Summary: I'd specifically advise AGAINST PW:Sing the MAIN tank on the pull (they take almost no damage anyway) for patchwerk (and if he/she is geared, don't do it ever they will be rage starved enough as it is), but I strongly advise that you DO PW:S the OFF-tank(s), on the pull and as much as you want through the fight... It'll do more good there from a healing perspective, and possibly cut the OT's rage supply enough that they won't have to pay attention to avoid pulling off your MT.

    (of course some of us like flipping agro back and forth on fights like this just to make sure our healers are awake.)

  14. #14
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    The main thing is just: As a healer, be willing to try changing things to not shield if your tank asks you to. Tanks: Be willing to try changing things and accept shield if your healers ask you to.

    Examples of places where shield is almost certainly a poor choice: the start of an AoE pull. (Every bit of rage needed, hits aren't that big.)

    Same things holds for all 5-man content, really: don't do it unless you absolutely know that it's needed, because the tank will have a use for all of that rage. You can use it later when the tank isn't sucking mud trying to get off the ground.


    Examples of places where shield could be a very good choice: "Complex pull" fights (i.e. fights where people are moving into position during the pull) where healers need a moment or two to settle before the really efficient healing can start, but the boss(es) hits with enough force to be scary.


    The key thing is that the healing team and tanking team ought to be communicating well. If either side has a thought about what might make a given fight easier, they should throw it out for consideration and see what's what. Worst case scenario, your counterparts on the other side will immediately see a reason why it's a bad idea. But if not, "Hmm, okay, let's try it" works out pretty well.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  15. #15
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    I notice the rage starvation from PW:S almost instantly. There is another buff i've had that absorbs damage. But I cant remember who casts it.

  16. #16
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    Hypatia, you sound like someone that has either seen both sides of the tanking/healing coin, or else you just really think like a tank :P

    I have to be honest, I read the first two lines of your post, and thought you were nuts, but reading the rest of it, you make a dead-on case for the in's and out's of shielding. There are definitely cases where a shield would make a big difference, while splitting out pulls between tanks and coordinating position -- those cases being the exception to the rule. And likely MOST important in those exceptional cases is that the DPS be aware to lay off until everything is ready and the tank is good on rage before they lay in.

    For the other cases, just wait until the warrior has a good bit of rage and use it to buffer some of the damage, instead of trying to force it at the beginning, or do it on chain pulls where the warrior already has a good deal of rage going into the pull. It's not that we hate the shields, we just hate not having the rage to work with.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinetix View Post
    I notice the rage starvation from PW:S almost instantly. There is another buff i've had that absorbs damage. But I cant remember who casts it.
    Thats probably paladins sacred shield?

  18. #18
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    If I'm rage-starved, I didn't need the shield. If I'm getting hit hard enough to need the shield, rage won't be a problem.

    Hypatia pretty much covered it. You can shield me on Patch if you want. I won't mind. I have all the rage I need to start on him. But if I'm at 0 rage, and about to start a LOS 5-man pull where I can't charge in, hold the shield for a moment till you see my bar tick up and the mobs hitting me. I'm really not trying to make your job hard. If I can't get rage, believe me, your job will get a lot harder, as the mobs will be chasing you!

  19. #19
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    use prayer of mending instead of pw:s ?

  20. #20
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    Don't ever preshield tanks before a pull. (Well... mostly don't...) Maybe DKs are not affected negatively, but all other tanks definetly are.
    Preshielding is only good if the boss hits HARD, I mean patch 25 or malygos 25. All other bosses more or less hit like a girl, so you gain nothing but make the initial aggro generation harder.

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