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Thread: Swordshattering -vs- Stoneskin Gargoyle: tested

  1. #1
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    Swordshattering -vs- Stoneskin Gargoyle: tested

    This topic has popped up in quite a few threads.

    Here's what we know now, from my testing:

    * swordshattering 4% parry is not effected by diminishing returns (it's treated like a racial or talent)
    * stoneskin gargoyle 25 Defence Skill, which in turn gives 3% avoidance which is also not effected by DR, and also +2% stamina

    The second highlighted point is what I didn't know.

    I just tested it on PTR to be sure.

    Thus, we have a choice of two runeforges that are wholly exempt from diminishing returns. Wonderful!


    My testing
    (1) Objective: need to verify whether the in-game parry/dodge shows diminished return avoidance.
    Method: Get the avoidance figures with and without Seal of Pantheon. It only adds defence, so easy to do the maths.

    With Pantheon:


    No Pantheon:


    Note the dodge goes from 13.35 down to 12.89, and parry from 14.77 to 14.41.
    Defence gives 0.04% per point of defence skill to each avoidance stat. The Pantheon gives 13.2 Defence, so we would expect 0.53% loss on dodge and also on parry.
    Observed difference was 0.46% and 0.36%, which proves diminishing returns are shown on the char panel.

    (2) Test: Add the Gargoyle enchant and observe difference in character sheet.

    Swordshattering


    Gargoyle


    Note the net change is 1% loss on parry. Therefore Gargoyle's avoidance benefits from Defence are not subject to DR. Awesome.

    Corroboration of that test:
    Clandestine on EJ tested it

    Threads that discussed:
    New defense runeforge..too good?
    Tank weapons removed
    My thanks to Origon on deathknight.info who first drew my attention to this.

    Statistics on ratings
    Tankspot library

  2. #2
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    The paper doll stats do not show the DR on them. So just looking at that, yeah, youll see 3% avoidance with SG vs SS at 4%. You need to get a mod to read it for you such as tankpoints.

    If you stack defense, the RF will be give very little to you as opposed to SS which isnt affected by DR due to it not being a rating. Now, could take that 25 def SKILL off the DR due to it not being a rating. IMO, more testing is needed.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    The paper doll stats do not show the DR on them. So just looking at that, yeah, youll see 3% avoidance with SG vs SS at 4%. You need to get a mod to read it for you such as tankpoints.
    How else do you explain the results of my first test, which showed a DR being applied to the Defence stat?

  4. #4
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    I'm not positive, but I believe Gravity is correct. The important thing to recognize is that it is ratings which are subject to diminishing returns and the new glyph adds flat defense skill.

    The thing I'm not 100% about is whether or not it properly applies as a baseline enhancement (+% from Swordbreaker/shatter or talents is applied as a base value and doesn't affect the equation of ratings approaching the cap), though I wouldn't be surprised if that were true. I also wouldn't be surprised if it were designed to factor that to make this more of a beginner tank rune, that falls off a bit in value as yoru gear improves into the tiers.

    Currently I'm sporting mostly 200-213 level tanking gear, and the new rune works out to be roughly the same as presented above, trade 4% parry for 1% miss+1% dodge+1% parry, and in my gear about 400 health. Personally, I'm still leaning towards Swordshattering since RS procs off of Parry/Dodge, not miss, and 400 health isn't quite worth the 400 health in my general catch-all tanking set. I may work it on a second weapon or set for different considerations though, we'll see.
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  5. #5
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    I suspect that right now, what a lot of DK tanks are thinking is that the stone gargoyle rune will allow them to upgrade into better gear without having to worry so much about the +def balance. We've all seen that a mixture of rep blues and emblem gear stack much more defence than T7 dk gear, so the stone gargoyle rune will allow for that step up into the full raid set, boosting survivability and threat just that little bit more.

    However, once we start getting up to T8 and T9, and (hopefully) getting much better +def on those sets, we'd go back to the rune of swordshattering because of the sheer amount of avoidance it gives.

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    I know for me, stepping up my gear has been challanging while maintaining my def skill. I have been sac'ing gem slots and socket bonus's just to keep my def as close to 540 as possible. This rune will allow me to fully impliment my gear without too much worry about dropping too low on def. But i would agree with Aurelia that hopefully with the next tier we will have no use of it, if only to drop some def gear for hit and expert rating items.

  7. #7
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    I guess what's strange about that is, ratings go to skill, which go to dodge/parry percent. It was my understanding that the dodge/parry gains from defense were subject to DR. Unless there's some separate code for the runeforge, or "things that increase defense skill directly", it doesn't make sense.

    What was your test, btw?
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    All you need to do to figure this all out is DL tankpoints. It will figure out all of the DRs for you. Dont look at the paperdoll and assume its correct. yes, Def DR can be figured out sort of, but even then, you dont know your real dodge and parry.

    The only question I would have is will the enchant "skip" DR by not being a rating. So if someone can take some shots on the PTR using raid buster or tankpoints, please post them.
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    All you need to do to figure this all out is DL tankpoints. It will figure out all of the DRs for you. Dont look at the paperdoll and assume its correct. yes, Def DR can be figured out sort of, but even then, you dont know your real dodge and parry.

    The only question I would have is will the enchant "skip" DR by not being a rating. So if someone can take some shots on the PTR using raid buster or tankpoints, please post them.
    Threads like this are *how* mods like tankpoints figure out the numbers, and what DR applies to what, and how much they are. You might try re-reading the first post in the thread.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttocs View Post
    What was your test, btw?
    It was pretty clear in my OP. I equipped the Pantheon trinket, which from only defence gives dodge and parry, and observed the difference when removed. It showed me that the paper doll does in fact display % with diminished returns.

    What is confusing about the paper doll is the MOUSE-OVER tooltips for dodge/parry, which say "before diminishing returns" but that's because the tooltip is referring to the dodge rating it displays.

    The final % displayed (with no tooltip) appears to show a diminished return figure.

    TankPoints always assumes DR applies, so it will mislead you if you plus +4% parry into its calculator. It will apply DR because it cannot know [yet] the source is one which is exempt from DR (like talents are exempt).

  11. #11
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    Blizzard's "official" blue post on the matter, if someone cares to dig it up, said that avoidance from ratings and attributes is subject to diminishing returns, namely:

    1.) Defense rating (miss, dodge, parry chance)
    2.) Dodge/parry rating (dodge/parry chance)
    3.) Agility (dodge chance)

    I'm hoping this is applied through ratings, which would make sense, though I don't know exactly how they code it. It is also a little hard to gauge on the character sheet since you need some big stat changes to really get a sense of changing scale. I know that with a decent upgrade (copied my character to the ptr twice about 3-4 weeks apart) in gear, it still gave the same avoidance values within 0.1-0.2%, but I didn't photo document either.
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  12. #12
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    I will just add to Satorri's list that Str which gave DK parry rating then parry chance is also subject to DR.

  13. #13
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    As I see things with my current gear is that SG will allow me to drop +def enchant/gem and use those slot/enchant for hit/exp, stam and avoidance. With the epic I've stored I'll be at 545 def allowing me to drop the +22 def enchant on chest for 275 HP things like that.
    Later on I hope to get enough defense in items so I can get SS for the parry % without having to enchant def or gem def.
    So the SG looks like it's there to help DK get crit immune while wearing a 2 Hander.

    My 2 cents.

  14. #14
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    Technically Tarrke, Strength is converted into parry rating which is added to your total from gear. It is still parry rating that is diminished, we just get more free parry rating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  15. #15
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    Didn't play a ton last night but did change my rune to Gargoyle. Defense went from 541-568 which then allowed me to regem a bunch of stuff (oh and now I remember I can upgrade from Daunting legs to the AC ones). I see myself using Garg for a long while, just too nice not having to lean on certain items just to keep you at cap.

  16. #16
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    It's definitely a sharp tool for DK tanks who are still trying to balance all the initial gear options. There's getting to the cap initially, and upgrading from blues that are itemized HEAVILY for defense to epics that leave you continually dropping below the cap.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  17. #17
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    Just noticed WoWArmory isn't counting the 25 defense from the rune. Not a big deal but did give me pause this morning when looking at it.

  18. #18
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    During the last weeks I've said : nevermind calculating this, avorall 4% parry is always better than 2% hp and 3% avoidance, as there are no DR on both. A powerfull argument was Satorri's one (iff my brain is not yet one like goldfishes) saying that 2% stam is quite poor, if I remember well, in his gear that was something like 500 more hp. So the deal was 2% stam or 1% avoidance. At that time I've just conclude that 1% avoidance was the best to go with.

    Now I must admit that this question was getting on my nerves for the last night and I've remember another thing. First getting that stoneskin rune not only gives you 3% avoidance, but this avoidance is got via def. What the point ? the point is that def serves 3 purpose now. First it helps us getting crit immune, and that's great. Second it helps us with avoidance (Dodge + Parry + Miss) and last but not least, it is the only way to improve our IBF.

    So am I saying that def is a new ubber stat for us ? I don't think so really, but theses 25 def must be seen not only as 3% avoidance, but also as some mitigation too, as IBF will loose it's O shit button status to get to a : I need some protection at this time button maybe getting stonesking instead of swordshattering is an option.

    I'll do some test this night if i can find a partner for this reduction and its increase with def.

  19. #19
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    I've conduct some test around def and IBF last night.

    I've found that at 541 def the absorbtion throught IBF is around 41%. Getting all the extra def I can I jump to 572 (don't have all the numbers here, but will display them during the afternoon) and found that the damage reduction was near 46%.

    So now I may say that def as a weapon enchant may not be the best of all enchants, I went back to a swordshattering before Naxx 10 and the healers did complain at all (we went as usual with 2 heals and 1 tank).

  20. #20
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    How did you structure/control your test.

    Blizz had said that IBF should be giving you ~35% damage reduction at 540 def.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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