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Thread: 540 The Only Way?

  1. #21
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    Interesting discussion and much appreciated.

    On a side note: I was able to get geared to 535 last night and while I was gtg the I found that while everyone is concerned if the tank has the proper def, no on questions the stats of others and due to very poor healing etc we wiped fast and all jumped out.

    In the second try with an excellent healer there was another party member that could not handle it, and once again.. the only concern from the start was does the tank have the *proper* def.

    What sucked was that the healer took the Arcane-Shielded Helm Arcane-Shielded Helm - Thottbot: World of Warcraft which is what I really need from Nexus (but that's another story.

    The bottom line I am finding is that there seems to be so much focus on the tanks def numbers and no interest in the rest of the party. It seems that many think that a 540 def tank is the only thing needed.

    I did not come here to start controversy, but to learn.. and with your help I am.

    Ok so I have my 535 def and it seems the problem is not me as we cleared 2 bosses tonight... rather it is those who focus on the tank having 535-540 and not themselves.

    540... well thats a good guideline... but imho, there is more to it then that... so many are in such a hurry that they think "540 def tank..we are gtg" when that is not the case at all.

    I was not trying to jump to fast from pvp to heroic tank... merely questioning if resilience could be used at the bottom of the rung in order to attain some gear from Nexus better than lvl 75-78 crafted items and some rep gear.

    Take a peek at me please at my 535 def gear
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    and if you know of other gear I can get other than Nexus or from rep running heroics I sure would appreciate that.


    Thank you all very!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by justatank View Post
    2. Or is there a valid reason why all I hear in game is "you must have 540 def" and never any discussion of the combination of resilience and def?
    It's only because that's the only stat other classes know to look for in a tank (in addition to health and armor). They've been conditioned from TBC to ask for 490def, and they automatically look for new min. defense requirement, which is 540. They also want to know if you've put in the effort to become a tank.

    The "valid reason" is simply because they want to make sure they take the steps necessary to increase the chances of their PUG's success. If you were in their position, wouldn't you do the same?

    It's the same thing when looking for DPS for a heroic; most people would ask "what's your DPS?" They won't ask "what's your spec? Do you know how to play your class? Which stats are you stacking?"

    Yes, Defense is the better option for uncrittability than resilience because it gives you more. And of course you can stack resilience to "patch" the lack of Defense in your gear.

    Next time people ask you "what's your def?", just tell them like it is. Something like "I'm 530, but I got the resilience to make me uncrittable." If they don't know what you're talking about, then too bad. If they're willing to listen, just give them a bit of a primer about uncrittability and how resilience works. I don't see what's the problem with that.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tristessa View Post
    It's only because that's the only stat other classes know to look for in a tank (in addition to health and armor). They've been conditioned from TBC to ask for 490def, and they automatically look for new min. defense requirement, which is 540. They also want to know if you've put in the effort to become a tank.

    The "valid reason" is simply because they want to make sure they take the steps necessary to increase the chances of their PUG's success. If you were in their position, wouldn't you do the same?

    It's the same thing when looking for DPS for a heroic; most people would ask "what's your DPS?" They won't ask "what's your spec? Do you know how to play your class? Which stats are you stacking?"

    Yes, Defense is the better option for uncrittability than resilience because it gives you more. And of course you can stack resilience to "patch" the lack of Defense in your gear.

    Next time people ask you "what's your def?", just tell them like it is. Something like "I'm 530, but I got the resilience to make me uncrittable." If they don't know what you're talking about, then too bad. If they're willing to listen, just give them a bit of a primer about uncrittability and how resilience works. I don't see what's the problem with that.
    Appreciate the response and this is getting off topic.. (my fault).

    Did not have the chance to explain to them.

    It was "whats your def?" and bam I was booted.

    I am past that now as I have 535... now they let me stay but its.. "damn your dps is low" ......

    Back to regular programming... I have my answers, thank you all

  4. #24
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    Lots of valid responses but no one's addressing the probem; he just needs to get uncrittable. Add a small amount of resil, since you won't lose any avoidance anyway, and maybe the next upgrade will fill in the defense gap. You guys are reading too deeply into a simple request. Yes defense is better, but can you sub resilience to become uncrittable? Definately. End of discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by justatank View Post
    With all due respect, I am not convinced that resilience cant be combined with def in order for one to not be critically hit in a lvl 80 instance Heroic mode.
    You're right, you can combine both stats to become "uncrittable". But there are two issues that you have to consider:

    1) Stat vs Stat: Defense also gives you block/parry/dodge, so the extra defense rating you need to get to 540 defense, will also give you more than 5% block, parry and dodge. Resilience has no effect on your block/dodge/parry, so by mixing resilience with defense you wont have as much block, dodge and parry as you could have with only defense.

    2) Itemization: Gear with defense rating usually has other useful tanking stats, such as dodge, block, sbv, parry, etc. And gear with resilience almost never has any other useful tanking stats (other than stamina, perhaps). By wearing resilience gear instead of stamina gear you'll gain less bonuses to your tanking stats.

    So, you can become uncrittable by mixing defense and resilience, but you will be gimping other very important tanking stats by doing so. Being uncrittable doesn't mean much when you have 8% chance to dodge/crit/hit.

    That being said, I did wear one resilience item to become uncrittable, that was immediately replaced by the first decent defense item I could find. it did the job, but I wouldn't recommend that for tanking a heroic, unless your healer is willing/able to make up for the extra damage you'll be taking.

  6. #26
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    I think the issue has been covered pretty well, but I would like to put a different spin on it for you.

    As a tank, you have a large responsibility (and your reputation on your server depends on it) for making the fights go smoothly. Some tanks go all out to get the best gear they have available and learning all the fights before they step into heroics. This is so they can ensure a smooth and enjoyable run for their group. One of those things you can do for that is to have 535 defense (540 for raiding).

    It really is very selfish to step into a heroic and expect the other group members to try to make up for your substandard gear. Just like I would never expect anyone to try to heal through my Heroic gear on Malygos or something. That is simply unfair. They put in the work to be ready for the content, so should you.

    Some pugs get their hair in a twist about things like 540 defense, or 20k health, but that comes from having bad tanks and not understanding how tanking works. That doesn't absolve you of responsibility when you try to take on content that your gearing won't support.

    Do the work, don't take shortcuts.
    Last edited by Knighterrant81; 01-12-2009 at 06:56 PM.

  7. #27
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    Resilience is a fantastic stat if you are sitting at 530ish defense and would have to swap in a vastly inferior piece of gear to attain the required 540 defense. But you should not include resilience as part of your gearing plan.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by justatank View Post

    Take a peek at me please at my 535 def gear
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    I'd be afraid of you because of low health and strange gearing choices, i.e. str gem, haste trinkets, and Nesingwary 4000 instead of Armor Plated Shotgun. You shouldn't be deliberately stacking crit, str, or haste.

  9. #29
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    Pretty sure they made it so Resilience doesn't work in PVE anymore. I don't know of a handy way to check previous patch notes, however.

    edit: I think I am mistaken here - there was a blue post that said they were considering it, but I don't think it ever went through.
    Last edited by clavarnway; 01-12-2009 at 09:25 PM.

  10. #30
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    For my shield block/shield rating set I'm looking at the PVP pieces - they have crit and decent stam and str, gem sockets - in that set i'm currently very crittable. I can live with it but if 2 pieces of PVP gear will remove crit on Heroic bosses and support the high dps/threat set with dps stats I think it's a good gear choice for that application.

  11. #31
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    I can live with it but if 2 pieces of PVP gear will remove crit on Heroic bosses and support the high dps/threat set with dps stats I think it's a good gear choice for that application.
    A tank has two primary concerns; holding aggro and survivability. When starting heroics, your TPS will not be a huge concern, but your survivability will be the key issue.

    Alot of 10/25man tanks are now dropping some mit for more DPS/TPS but that is only because they're EH and avoidance stats are high enough to trivialize the content. Or at least, that is the way I see it.

    From a survival standpoint, defense is the clear superior and thus resil should be avoided.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    Also, you can get all the defense gear you need in normal instances. You don't have to start at heroics to get it.
    Not to mention there's a ton of defense to be had via WoTLK gems and enchants (including vendor head & shoulder enchants), I can't see any valid reason for a tank to utilize res to hit uncrittable, heck worst case scenario carry around some of the old flasks of fortification (they're cheap now) if you need that little bit of extra defense to push you over the cap but heaven forbid wearing PvP gear for the res while tanking instances.

  13. #33
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    Re-bumping my previous statement. While not the best choice, resil will keep you from being crit if you have to swap in a piece to reach that mark in order to enter heroics. I tanked all of BT in a season 3 chest because of the high stamina and hit. It allowed me to choose avoidance pieces that had less def on them while still keeping it survivable. I think I'm seeing something of either a lack of experience or some kind of elitist-ism in a lot of these posts. Bottom line- the upgrades will come, using a little resil to get your foot in the door is not a crime. It will all be ok please calm down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Re-bumping my previous statement. While not the best choice, resil will keep you from being crit if you have to swap in a piece to reach that mark in order to enter heroics. I tanked all of BT in a season 3 chest because of the high stamina and hit. It allowed me to choose avoidance pieces that had less def on them while still keeping it survivable. I think I'm seeing something of either a lack of experience or some kind of elitist-ism in a lot of these posts. Bottom line- the upgrades will come, using a little resil to get your foot in the door is not a crime. It will all be ok please calm down.
    I didn't see any sense of elitism in this thread. However, I did see people asking if their resil gear was "just enough" instead of getting proper tank gear.

    Don't be that guy, nobody likes that guy, lol.
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  15. #35
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    to get started there's nothing wrong with using some resil. when i first entered heroics I was still using my season 3 shield wall and season 4 throwing weapon. not only do they give decent stats, the resil helped me get to 5.4% uncritability for the instances. In TBC I used season 2 shoulders until I got the ones off of netherspite. Lots of PvP gear as much as it has tons of dps stats, also has high stamina, high armor, and uncrittability resilience. If you aren't hurting in the avoidance stats but could use some stam,armor and maybe some leighway in your gearing. resil is a decent stat.

    Say.. you're using a crappy tanking ring that has 20 defense but has low stam and no armor, and you get this to drop: Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft

    Are you saying he'd be better off sticking with pure defense instead of grabbing this, and then maybe using giving up a less optimal .... throwing weapon or something with resil? I definitely don't see a problem with this. Honestly, I never got the Seal of Pantheons to drop from Halls of Lightning, so sometimes if I got gear upgrades, I'd drop below the 540 defense minimum. Up until I got the Repelling Charge from thaddius, sometimes when the situation called for it, I'd equip my PvP trinket with resil. Why? Because it worked. and my next best trinket was just for some minor avoidance boost.

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  16. #36
    Resil gear is a band-aid. Take advantage of it if thats what you have to get the job done. PvP gear usually is high in stam and armor so its really not a bad choice to sub in pvp gear for weak gear spots while you are trying to fill them out with better things. Would I suggest walking into a heroic with 90% pvp gear and a shield? Not really. But 1 or 2 pieces to fill gaps are just fine.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    to get started there's nothing wrong with using some resil. when i first entered heroics I was still using my season 3 shield wall and season 4 throwing weapon. not only do they give decent stats, the resil helped me get to 5.4% uncritability for the instances. In TBC I used season 2 shoulders until I got the ones off of netherspite. Lots of PvP gear as much as it has tons of dps stats, also has high stamina, high armor, and uncrittability resilience. If you aren't hurting in the avoidance stats but could use some stam,armor and maybe some leighway in your gearing. resil is a decent stat.

    Say.. you're using a crappy tanking ring that has 20 defense but has low stam and no armor, and you get this to drop: Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft

    Are you saying he'd be better off sticking with pure defense instead of grabbing this, and then maybe using giving up a less optimal .... throwing weapon or something with resil? I definitely don't see a problem with this. Honestly, I never got the Seal of Pantheons to drop from Halls of Lightning, so sometimes if I got gear upgrades, I'd drop below the 540 defense minimum. Up until I got the Repelling Charge from thaddius, sometimes when the situation called for it, I'd equip my PvP trinket with resil. Why? Because it worked. and my next best trinket was just for some minor avoidance boost.

    Actually, I picked up the Keystone great ring a while ago. I have tested putting it in instead of my blue +stam/+str/+def/+block value ring and guess what?

    The mitigation is better with the defense.

    No matter how i swap around that ring, I still end up much better off with having my blue ring compared to this epic. Just because it's epic and has avoidance doesn't mean it's meant for you. That ring really shines for druids, not us.

    So yes, my answer is to keep the +def ring even though you picked up an epic ring. If you're seriously trying to put the Keystone into what you're using, methinks you should roll a droooood!
    (5/13/53) - Awesome pre-raid AOE tank spec for instances

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkonn View Post
    Actually, I picked up the Keystone great ring a while ago. I have tested putting it in instead of my blue +stam/+str/+def/+block value ring and guess what?

    The mitigation is better with the defense.
    What blue ring are you talking about? I would almost dare say that unless your EH is high without eighter ring, the Keystones will always win because it has so much EH (78sta and 490 armor is alot for a ring).

    Edit, I wouldn't call Unsmashable Heavy Band - Item - World of Warcraft a crappy tanking ring

  19. #39
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    Well I was 540 def. before trying out heroics. My experience have been that many people are undergeared when starting them... after I have been out-dpsing people I am usually "kind" enough to point that out to them, and usually also helpfull in determining how they can gear up fast... Many are overlooking some very nice gear from the rep-factions.

    That brings me to replying to Justatank's request for comments...
    GET THE BLOODY Standard Issue Legguards - Item - World of Warcraft from Argent Crusade... I used those well into Naxxx25. And do yourself a favor, read the gear lists found on these forums and see what you can get for those slots you still have pvp gear in.
    (And yes you are honored with AC so can get those leg guards now).
    Check the other factions and what they have for tanking - can remember that that Wyrmrest have a nice back at honored, but there are a lot.

    /Wolf :Q

  20. #40
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    540 is not the only way, 540 for raid content and 535 for heroics is advisable, and makes everyone’s life a lot easier

    But it do piss me off a bit that as soon I get in a heroic group/or try to, the first question is how much defence you have.

    I don’t see anyone asking if a dps know what buttons to press!!! And trust me I have found a few that don’t.

    To tank is much more than gear, its mostly awareness, to know when to use block/disarm (you can disarm most bosses in heroics), to position the mobs so they don’t bypass you’re avoidance, to position the mobs so they don’t cone/cleave the rest of the group, to find what mobs you losing the grip and grab them before they hit someone else, etc, to save you’re cool downs for the right time etc…

    Besides 540 deff or even 1000 wont make you completely uncritable, there are no 100% rules in wow, 540 deff will remove crits from the combat table, but there are still crits that happen after that, its very rare but happen.

    I started doing HC this week had 505 deff at the time, and I am currently at 517 deff, 20K healt 22K armur and 48% avoidance, crit chances are very low for mobs now, and it’s a lot easier to get those last 23 deff doing heroics, be it from rep items or badges stuff. I been healed from fully 25 man geared healers and from new just respect for healing healers all in blues, and all wipes so far happened because someone did something dumb, not because the healer was unable to heal the tank.
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 01-14-2009 at 11:09 AM.

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