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Thread: 540 The Only Way?

  1. #1
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    540 The Only Way?

    New to the forums.. and have a quick question.

    My understanding is that one needs 540 Def as a tank in lvl 80 instances run in heroic mode or in Nax so that one does not recieve a critical attack from a boss.

    Then I read this at Defense - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

    Critical Hits are strikes or spells by mobs against the player that deal twice the normal damage. The player's Defense and Resilience are both attributes that reduce the chance of an enemy critically striking. The chance to be critically hit is based on the difference between the attacker's weapon skill and the player's defense skill and resilience %.
    it gives a piece of code that one can run in game

    To determine whether you have reached the crit cap through Defense and Resilience, type the following into chat: /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(5.6-((GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL))*.04+GetC ombatRatingBonus(CR_CRIT_TAKEN_MELEE)),1,0.5,0)

    If the number is 0 or negative, you are uncritable. If the number is above 0, you require more defense or resilience vs level 73 bosses.
    Granted this is for lvl 73 bosses but when I run the code with my best Def number of 529 I recieve a number back of 0.5 and when I try different mixtures of various def and resilience gear I am able to get that number to 0.01

    I have 2 questions:

    1. Is my mixture which leads to 0.01 good enough for lvl 80 heroics

    2. Or is there a valid reason why all I hear in game is "you must have 540 def" and never any discussion of the combination of resilience and def?
    Last edited by justatank; 01-11-2009 at 12:49 AM.

  2. #2
    540 Defense is the defense skill required to remove critical hits from the hit table against level 83 mobs. I.E. - 10 Mans / 25 Mans. You need 535 Defense to remove critical hits in a Heroic.


    But yes - You can combine both Resilience & Defense, but, in the long run, Defense will benefit you alot more (It decreases chance to be hit, but also increases Dodge + Parry. The hit reduction isnt from Dodge / Parry, it is in the form of a miss, on the hit table - Read the tool-tip of Defense (It reduces chance to be hit, and critically hit).

    Also, I'm yet to see tanking gear with Resilience (Resilience is a PvP stat, so tanking gear with Res in would be kinda useless). Afaik, Resilience doesn't scale as well, either, but I may be wrong. Haven't got the exact values for both.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightdemon View Post
    540 Defense is the defense skill required to remove critical hits from the hit table against level 83 mobs. I.E. - 10 Mans / 25 Mans. You need 535 Defense to remove critical hits in a Heroic.


    But yes - You can combine both Resilience & Defense, but, in the long run, Defense will benefit you alot more (It decreases chance to be hit, but also increases Dodge + Parry. The hit reduction isnt from Dodge / Parry, it is in the form of a miss, on the hit table - Read the tool-tip of Defense (It reduces chance to be hit, and critically hit).

    Also, I'm yet to see tanking gear with Resilience (Resilience is a PvP stat, so tanking gear with Res in would be kinda useless). Afaik, Resilience doesn't scale as well, either, but I may be wrong. Haven't got the exact values for both.
    Agreed that the Dodge + Parry decrease benefit is nice.. but is that why only 540 Def is espoused?

    Not trying to start trouble here lol. Just wanting to know why everyone so far in my realm that I have spoken with says things like:

    "get rid of all that resilience gear"

    I am looking to get the def gear from Nexus but am turned away because I dont have 540 Def. Yet when I switch to the def gear (need a few more pieces) that will get me started in Nexus, I lose tons of other stats, yet per that code I am much less likely to be critically hit ( 0.01 ) than with the def at 529 and no resilience gear (0.5)

    Thanks again

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by justatank View Post
    Agreed that the Dodge + Parry decrease benefit is nice.. but is that why only 540 Def is espoused?

    Not trying to start trouble here lol. Just wanting to know why everyone so far in my realm that I have spoken with says things like:

    "get rid of all that resilience gear"

    I am looking to get the def gear from Nexus but am turned away because I dont have 540 Def. Yet when I switch to the def gear (need a few more pieces) that will get me started in Nexus, I lose tons of other stats, yet per that code I am much less likely to be critically hit ( 0.01 ) than with the def at 529 and no resilience gear (0.5)

    Thanks again
    It sounds like you're trying to shift from PvP to tanking heroics a little too soon. I suggest running regular instances until such a time that you have your defense capped out. You should never think that because you are 80 and have non-tank epic gear that you are "good enough" for heroics already. Gearing is progressive, not interchangeable.

    Trust me, spend a week of doing regular instances, and you'll be geared in no time.
    (5/13/53) - Awesome pre-raid AOE tank spec for instances

  5. #5
    529 Defense? For every 5 Defense skill, you remove 0.2% chance to be crit.

    In Heroics, the highest level mob which you will encounter is level 82. That requires 535 Defense (Reduction of 5.4% Crit chance).

    At 529 Defense, you have a bonus 129 Defense (over the base 400).

    Thats 129 / 5 = 25.8

    25.8 * 0.2 = 5.16 reduction of crit chance.

    (Mobs have a 5% base chance to crit. For every level the mob is above you, they gain 0.2% Chance to crit).

    Thats 5.4-5.16 = 0.24% Chance to be crit.


    No idea what the command you posted does, but its incorrect.

    Also agree with the above poster. Run some normals til you get the last bit of defense. Resilience gear won't have the tanking stats you need, and is generally worse for tanking beaucse of this.

  6. #6
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    I wouldn't sweat it too much tbh. Find a decent healer that don't mind a challenge and it'll run just fine. I've healed heroics with tanks barely over 500 def and yes, they do take a crit once in a while, but the damage isn't that great.

    If you can't find said healer, then I guess you have to do it the hard way with craftables, normal drops, and you can even use the resillience flask until you have enough defense.

  7. #7
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    With all due respect, I am not convinced that resilience cant be combined with def in order for one to not be critically hit in a lvl 80 instance Heroic mode.

    from:
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/3...there-one.html

    Yes, there seems to be an online calculator to sort out where your toon stands re being uncrittable post-patch: A list of useful Tanking Formulas for Warriors - Dodge, Parry, Block

    You plug in your resilience, and it tells you the defense rating you require to be uncrittable.

    Also, not having regemmed/re-enchanted since the latest patch (when our defense rating plummeted ~ 20 points), I find my prot warrior toon is "overcapped" for defense, and I can free up 12 defense rating points - that with current defense rating of 482 and resilience of 33 - and remain uncrittable. See Be Imba! - the online Character Auditor for World of Warcraft

    The moral of course is uncrittable is a combination of (at least) two components: defense rating and resilience.
    Granted I agree that achieving the 0 chance for critical thru def vs. def and res is better.. it does seem that as the 0 chance for critical thru def and resilience is an option.

    In that thread the poster makes the same point.. that he was looked up on the armory and all that was looked at was def.. thus he was turned down.

    Once that one can get into Nexus heroic, then good def gear can be attained. While focusing on only def gear prerequiste for Nexus commanding that only def 540 vs def and resilience is used creates a great loss in other stats.... for me looking at a reduction of 2000hp - 900 armor - 100 str - 300 attack power etc.

    So if one can become 0 chance crit + 2000hp +100 str + 300 attack power etc that would seem worth considering. I need 3 more def as of this post for the magical 540 def... but have lost so much in other areas.

    As for finding a healer that will work with me... well, thats what brought me here... see, after being immediately kicked out of parties with not a word when they asked "what is your def" I stumbled upon articles such as the ones menioned in this thread while reading about def gear and the connection to critical hits from bosses.

    thank you all for the replies.
    Last edited by justatank; 01-11-2009 at 02:33 AM.

  8. #8
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    Don't use any fancy addons to calculate if you're uncritable

    Go to your character tab: hover over defense: you get a critreduction number, hover over resilience, you get a crit reduction number: add them together and if you get crit reduction above 5.6% you are uncritable. (5.4% for heroics)

    YES resilience helps you get crit immune.

    BUT remember for PvE: all resilience when you are already crit immune is waste of stats, it does practically nothing.
    More defense when you are already at 540 is still one of the best stats out there.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    BUT remember for PvE: all resilience when you are already crit immune is waste of stats, it does practically nothing.
    Resilience also reduces the periodic damage from dots but thats really neither here nor there resilience is much much worse that defense.

    Have you taken a look at http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/4...ear-guide.html

    For my DK I used http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/4...gear-list.html and was able to get crit immune without having to tag along as dps or farm normal instances. you should be able to hit 540 using bs craftable items and quest rewards along with a few defense enchants.

    Unless you have a well geared healer friend who will help you farm heroics till you become geared I wouldn't recommend using pvp items with resilience as a short cut to becoming crit immune.

  10. #10
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    Resilience is the cheapest way to get crit-immune, it scales BETTER then defense. But don't get me wrong, because defense provides a ton of avoidance, you should NEVER take resilience over defense. In case you need to get crit-immune in a hurry, the Lesser Flask of Toughness - Item - World of Warcraft and Kharmaa's Grace - Item - World of Warcraft are very attractive options, just keep in mind that they are band-aid fixes. In general, if you tank a boss that can kill you with a critical hit, you are undergeared anyway So, heroics while not defense capped is usually percectly doable, just watch your health, take a good healer and be quick with cooldowns should one slip by.
    Last edited by Morgo; 01-11-2009 at 05:38 AM.

  11. #11
    540 is a 'shorthand' way of saying 'are you uncrittable?'

    You can be uncrittable using a combination of defence and resilience. No it's not ideal, yes its fine when perhaps you're just starting out and gear can be harder to get.
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  12. #12
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    i am not sure why pvp players seem to think they can jump straight into HC without having to gear up first, i had the same problem with a dps warrior thinking his purple pvp gear would be plenty to start HC, with the same kind of discussion

    why should the healer be better geared to heal through the extra dmg you take because you think you can have a free pass at HC? its not even that hard to collect +def gear, just using the crafted BS pieces and some q rewards gets you there easy.

    maybe i am in a bad mood, but i am getting very tired of getting pugs that seem to think normal difficulty isn't for them, i had lots of fun in normal instances when my gear was lacking for HC why does everyone else want to skip the progression?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by justatank View Post
    With all due respect, I am not convinced that resilience cant be combined with def in order for one to not be critically hit in a lvl 80 instance Heroic mode.
    There is a fine line about what "can" be done and what "should" be done. Yes, you can be crit immune with resilience and even a combination of defense and resilience. But if all at possible, you should not do it.

    Why? You seem to be caught up on the "crit immune and I am ready to go" mentality. There is much more to tanking than simply being crit immune and having a decent sized hit pool. Avoidance is a very important part of being a tank. Resilience provides no avoidance while defense provides quite a lot. It's that simple. A tank who bases themselves on being crit immune via resilience is gimping them self and their group by having lower avoidance than they could and are exposing them self to a lot more incoming damage than they should. Being crit immune is a must for tanking, but it isn't the only must.

    With that said, if you are close to being crit immune and a little resilience will push you over, then that is ok, but you should be actively trying to replace resilience with defense based gear. In the long run it will produce better results.

    In short, using resilience to get that last bit of crit immunity is ok as a temporary solution. Think that using resilience as a long term solution is not ok. It is inferior to defense.

    Also, you can get all the defense gear you need in normal instances. You don't have to start at heroics to get it. There is crafted gear that is available as well as some reputation gear. It isn't hard to do, it just takes planning, a bit of patience, and some work.

  14. #14
    The requirement for tanking heroics is: Be level 80. Everything else is artificially applied, it's not like you can't zone in.

    If you go before you are crit immune, you may take a crit, which depending upon the circumstances might flatten you. It won't necessarily, but if you are having trouble obtaining crit immunity, chances are you have other problems, involving low health and armor and avoidance, and possibly involving not knowing how to play, if you didn't tank frequently in previous content. So crit immunity is not just something you get so you'll be crit immune, you become crit immune by gearing, which is a good thing to do for reasons other than just becoming crit immune, and the process of gearing often teaches a new tank about the mechanics of tanking.

    So when I hear that a tank is not crit immune, I expect him to also have low overall damage reduction, to probably be confused about encounters, and to maybe be confused about how to tank in general, all of which are larger problems than his taking the occasional critical hit.

    A tank can achieve crit immunity via PvP gear, but this is usually not correct gearing because avoidance tends to be low because crit reduction via defense on PvE gear also increases avoidance. In most cases this kind of gearing simply isn't as good as can be obtained via PvE gear.

  15. #15
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    Honestly I started running and clearing heroics just fine with about 480 defense, (was still using most of my level 70 set back then). I don't recall even one wipe because of my low defense, there were a couple of close calls where I got very unlucky and took 2 or more crits in a row, but I pulled through those with use of Last Stand, Shield Wall, or a pot. I really don't understand why anyone tries to impose some sort of "540 defense" minimum on any tank trying to run a heroic. Especially when most of them probably know nothing about tanking.

    Maybe I just know good healers though.. /shrug

  16. #16
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    Macfeagle - from personal experience it isn't enough to just be level 80 and expect to be able to tank heroics.

    Until Wrath came out I had either played DPS classes or healing classes. As a spur of the moment thing I levelled my pally first, and specced it prot. Upon hitting 80 some guildies of mine decided to take me to a H:CoT run, when I was under defense cap, had never done it before and shouldn't have even set foot into the instance.

    Long story short, we had a druid in the party at all times to pick up when I died, and boy did I die a lot.
    My recommendation is to get defense gear over resil gear, because the def. gear is designed for tanking thus will have (generally) more HP or more avoidance stats.

    You can get some really nice crafted tanking gear for a starter, and some high defense reputation gear.

  17. #17
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    Basically put is just because you CAN tank with below 435 defence in heroics does not and never will mean you should..

    Imo its lazy wanting to skip out of gearing up, hell you can do it nearly with just BS craftables.

    there is no really excuse for sloppy ethics when tanking, those that actually make the effort to gear up with craftables and normal instance runs would in my book be better players simple because they care about the char there playing and not just "want to short cut to the good loot by relying upon the healer to be over geared".

    At the end I think it comes down to pride in what you do, I was 540 before setting foot in a heroic, took about 3 days after hitting 80 ... very easily done, now why should some poor healer have to put up with a tank who would not even make that effort is beyond me lol

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enemisses View Post
    Honestly I started running and clearing heroics just fine with about 480 defense, (was still using most of my level 70 set back then). I don't recall even one wipe because of my low defense, there were a couple of close calls where I got very unlucky and took 2 or more crits in a row, but I pulled through those with use of Last Stand, Shield Wall, or a pot. I really don't understand why anyone tries to impose some sort of "540 defense" minimum on any tank trying to run a heroic. Especially when most of them probably know nothing about tanking.

    Maybe I just know good healers though.. /shrug
    Most likely your healers are able to pick up the slack, correct.


    In wrath content, being crit immune via 540 defense means you have worked actively while leveling to acquire gear towards your spec. You've put the time and effort that is required to do your job efficiently. Surely in BC, I got to 70 and had to get 490 defense. I attempted to tank heroic ramps just after dinging 70, and we wiped twice within the first pull.

    The same theory is applied to the new expansion. Just because you know how to tank or used to have T4/T5/etc. in BC, it means squat with 80 heroics. The OP is talking about going from PvP to tanking PvE heroics, which the gear does not scale to the role. Had he gone to a DPS spec, his gear would have been fine. Just because you're crit immune in PvP gear does not mean you can PvE tank heroics. All of your tank gear earned through PvE also gives you avoidance, which PvP gear does NOT. So you have no avoidance with PvP gear, and no avoidance because you want to stack +resil gear. I don't know about you, but a crit immune tank with 30% dodge/block/parry will be horrible compared to a 60-65% avoidance geared tank.

    Alternatively though, you can tank non-heroics just fine. As I stated before, please, get your feet wet in instances before going and doing them on heroic. You'll get your gear, and you will never have to worry about people passing you up because you have inferior stats to someone who has put the work in.
    Last edited by Tarkonn; 01-11-2009 at 05:05 PM.
    (5/13/53) - Awesome pre-raid AOE tank spec for instances

  19. #19
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    A 16 resilience rating gem will knock 0.19% chance to crit off of you. A 16 defense gem will only do 0.13%. Meaning that when looking solely at uncritability, resilience provides more per point. So, if gemming resilience will make you uncritable when defense won't, go for it.

  20. #20
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    The counter argument is that Defense does more for you than Resil - It also adds to Dodge, Parry, and the mob's chance to outright miss. Resiliance doesn't do that.

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