Devestate or not to devestate?
This is just to discuss the pros and cons of aoe tanking w or without the use of devestate. As stated in previous posts I'm against the idea of using devestate to aoe tank- here are some arguments to support that fact.
The idea of tanking is to do the most dmg while keeping all mobs under control and/or aggroed. Devestate fails in a couple ways of accomplishing this on multiple mobs. One, it's dmg fails- devestate does horrible dmg unless your target has 5 sunders, and even then shockwave, cb, ss, even revenge, will typically do more dmg. But threat is the point you say? Yes, keeping aggro is top priority- otherwise we'd be dpsing. With cleave and the clap you don't need sunders on targets, muchless with shockwave, ss, cb, and revenge to throw around at low threat mobs. All high dmg, high threat- efficient! options.
However the opposite is also true of bosses. Nothing is more efficent at gaining threat and stacking sunders than devestate/swordnboard ss combinations.
Devestate is also very useful for keeping spike threat in check. A Mage blows cooldowns and pounds the sheet out of something, often a taunt followed by two quick devestates will remedy the situation before someone gets hurt.
But once again imo using devestate for aoe tanking is overkill and inefficent. Its like a warlock dotting up trash mobs, they'll be dead before the full dmg is done. So why devestate and do horrible dmg when you can spam cleave, clap and all your physical attacks? Because it's easier? The tanks second priority should be pounding out as much dmg as possible. On single targets devestate is fantastic, but I strongly believe that in an aoe tanking position it is highly inefficent.
You don't *need* the glyph, it's nice. I do just fine without it. However, I will highlight that in aoe situations, my cleave is my #1 source of damage (about 30-40% unglyphed), so adding a 3rd target to cleave could potentially increase my cleave DPS by 50%, effectively.
Originally Posted by duniank
You should post some numbers to back that statement, but you may have some difficulty with that. Devastate is really good for threat, especially in aoe if you glyph sunder. The act of applying a sunder (for prot warriors, though devastate), is one of the best ways to quickly establish threat (and in the good old days, was pretty much the only way to go). Refer to Satrina's post, http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...s-warrior.html for actual numbers explaining why it is so.
Originally Posted by kazajhodo
Cleave is also great, no doubt, but it's on next swing, you should be doing that anyways in addition to other things. Revenge is also decent, but you only get it periodically. So, you have to assume you ARE always cleaving, you have Thunderclapped, Shockwaved, Shield Slammed and Revenged, and that just leaves devastste which can consistently spam every GCD for remarkable threat.
Well I'll by no means claim to know it all. Although your statements have raised a few more questions.
First, I'm talking efficiency and arguing that sunder/devastate is excessive for aoe tanking. Not thats its bad or worthless or generates bad threat- the opposite in fact, who needs numbers to know that, its common knowledge. I am arguing that you can do much better damage and keep aggro using everything except devastate on groups. I'm arguing that the best tanks will have the best threat/dmg mix- entirely keeping aggro while helping the overall dps and progress of the group.
As for posting numbers, you quoted my entire post and asked about a statement- I have no clue what you meant. That devastate sucks for straight up dmg? Maybe its alot better at 80, but it sure sucks @ 67 and every lvl before that so far.
Furthermore, I don't see how you have time to spam devastate either...imo a solid warrior has 9 regularly used moves. This is without spell interrupts...just with gcd thats about 18seconds, without any interrupts. Which means you'll have moves off cooldown again before your through your first series. Eventually this does catch up and you get a moment here and there to throw around a devastate- however this is by no means spamming, no means. I've tried spamming it and I just can't comprehend how you can argue its more efficient.
Efficient meaning that the tank is holding aggro and putting out as much dmg as possible. I'm sure i'll understand once I start tanking @ 80.
I always open with a TC, then a Shockwave, keep (glyphed) cleave up as much as possible.
It's also a matter of having some smart dps, I've had hunters pulling 4,5k dps (in an Heroic!) and I had no problems keeping threat, while some of the more 'noob-ish' dps keep pulling aggro...
Thats so irritating, not always noobs though, had a lock the other day, who was just a jackass, kept pulling aggro and blaming me and the healer when he died. Truth is, we warned him once, then let him die. He still continued to do this 3 more times. We didnt kick him cause it was hillarious. He was a fairly well geared 80, couldnt be a noob unless he bought the toon, EBay Lock, lol
Anyway great advice guys, thx
What about using glyph of sunder, hitting that extra mob should help gen some threat and not to mention it is not swing based attack. Also what are some thoughts on Rend to help hold aggro. I think that would be a helpful additional dot on mobs. Thoughts?
Rend is pretty low threat/damage for using up a GCD...with a Deep Wounds build and the AoE abilities warriors get you would have no reason to use it.
Glyph of Sunder
I use Glyph of Sunder and it works very well, on 3 - 4 mobs, using a fast 1H (1.6 ) and tabbing through, Ill have 4 -5 Sunders on each which gives me amazing threat. Personally I use Devastate to apply the Sunders, although there is some controversy on that subject above.
Originally Posted by Underdawg
Some great posts and valid opinions in the last few posts! If you know you have some crazy dps behind you glyph of sunder sounds pretty solid. Being that I'm only 67, I'm curious as to how well tanks dps @ later levels. As of now I'm far more often to still be on top of the meters while tanking.
So for those of you with more exp, if your a solid tank will this trend still continue? The only time I ever get beaten in overall dmg is with well geared guildmates on dps. Being a former dps class for years I really enjoy doing both tanking and topping meters. What have you other warrior tanks ran into? I know a Druid tank bud of mine was always still both. Opinions?
As for me, no I do not top the meters, with my current tactics at 80 and a GS of 3800-ish I can really only reach 1.2 - 2k depending on buffs, and the current fight, trash or boss, while the deeps are hitting from 800 (believe it or not in Heroics, lol) to 3k+. So, in short as a Tank, my dps isnt great, I havent heard any complaints on my dps as long as I hold the mobs. I am interested in increasing it, and Im sure it will increase from better gear and advice such as the Glyph of Cleave as mentioned earlier.
Originally Posted by kazajhodo
The glyph of cleave is a must, straight up if your a respectable tank you should have it. So try that and take a shot with glyph of resonating power. It makes you clap 5 rage cheaper, which with the proper prot talents gets you down to 8 rage per clap effectively getting you about 4 extra cleaves per pull. So some quick math and you'll realize that adds up to alot more dps and threat. Cleave is dmg split 3 ways with the glyph, so it's not huge threat- but with about a 1.8 weapon speed it adds up quick. Also pick up the minor glyph of thunder clap, it only adds two yards of range to the clap- but, that'll be enough that your clap is reaching those mobs on the edge of the pack, which is ftw.
Someone mentioned rend earlier too. I'll normally rend on my first target on my first hit out of habit, but it's threat is lacking for sure. Throwing up rends on all mobs would be like a lock dotting up trash- the mobs just die too fast for the dmg to add up in relation to time wasted that you could be using things like cb, rev, ss, clap, shockwave- even a sunder, pretty much anything. Even with talents and glyphed it's still fail. If you want to dot use oil of immolation for 250dmg per mob...I think over 15 seconds. It's entertaining at least, hehe.
As I stated before, I was talking 950 DPS @ level 70, which is not far from 67. Generally less because you are probably missing armored to the teeth, which is a huge talent.
Originally Posted by kazajhodo
I think your biggest gap is that you equate DPS with TPS. Many abilities have Threat bonuses, you *really* need to read that article I linked and keep THREAT in mind rather than DPS.
I took a look at the article WoW 3.0 Threat Values (Warrior), and now my head hurts from info overdose, lol. Good read though.
Btw, thank you guys for a mature, intelligent and informative post, its been very enjoyable.
Nah I get what your saying insahnity, and I deffinately read that post you linked right away. Quite informative and actually confirmed what I thought were the threat order of moves.
I'm not confusing dps and threat, I'm just trying to say that there's a balance to be found. You only need a certain aount of threat to hold mobs. So my thinking is that it would be optimal to walk that fenceline as close as possible. Keeping all aggro as #1 priority, however doing as much dps as possible in order to down mobs faster. Thereby in a way encouraging dmg mitigation, because obviously the less time a mob spends hitting you the less dmg your going to take. Keeping high dmg mobs stunned, silenced and disarmed helps a ton as well.
For that goal I primarily concentrate on hit and expertise, strength- in order to keep a sustained threat, rather than spikey, and consistent dps that doesn't rely on crits. At 67 just in greens I'm running the highend of 800dps, 870ish, typically out doing all dps I come across by 10%. Which just might means that the dps sucks, although I do have a few blues- weapon n such. I think I'm running with 24k effective health with about 52% dmg mitigation just on armor. I think I'm about 66% with blocking incorporated.
I know dps doesn't = threat by any means- and certainly according to the tooltips moves have much higher threat than others. I'm just looking for efficiency. Not to little, not to much threat, enough to keep the enemy soaking us with the dmg. I know I have a ton to learn, and I'm open to testing any advice. I'll never say I know it all by any means, I just feel strongly from my experience so far that, at least at my current lvl tanking and doing top dps is easily viable...may the dps has to be fails; but I've done nothing but level in instances and I've constantly tested ideas and kept track of recount data and read posts like the one you linked and different theories and mechanics. Not many people throw around the idea of a threat dps hybrid tactic, but at least as of yet it's served me very well. And of course I completely switch up tanking styles between trash and bosses, I even switch weapons for different enchants for single target or multiple target pulls.
I'm learning alot, thanks for the advice and don't think that I'm not taking it into csrful consideration and putting what works into practice.
oh and I do have armored to the teeth, 101 talent imo. I know dmg doesn't equal threat, but it certainly helps!
Last edited by kazajhodo; 01-21-2010 at 12:21 AM.