Personally speaking I've always used the 15/5/51 once I hit def cap and have never had a problem. My guild has cleared all content including OS 3D. I don't think at any one time while we were progressing through the content was there an issue of tanks taking too much damage. Keep in mind most of us were still in Sunwell/Heroic gear. So the idea that those few points into a more defensive oriented build are going to save you from some awful death in the future is misleading.
couldnt agree more
Originally Posted by Astemus
The thing is this would all be true if Blizzard posters had not said that people will be looking at a players ability to tank, and dps now. It's not just some random guy on a websites backward theory that tanks should be doing dps Blizzard has pushed us in this direction. I am not sure about other players, but I started looking at the beta talent calculators very early in Wotlk beta, and this is the spec I kept coming to. Here is a word of warning. My guild has cleared all current content, and as our dps is getting fully geared the threat gap is closing fast, and I will bet tanks that only go for survival will be holding thier guilds dps back in Ulduar. You can argue that this spec is leading new tanks astray, but I would not want to be a new tank in this aoe friendly instance clearing age with out this spec.
Heh mage and hunter DPS went up even further this patch. Now I really have to work to hold off the mage. I'm even sneaking intervenes on him sometimes now if it is a fight that allows me to.
Deep wounds is likely to be one of our best scaling threat moves throughout the xpac especially for aoe threat since weapon damage tends to scale up very rapidly compared to secondary stats. They really need to improve the scaling in other areas if they are going to hamper it in any way.
Look at my armory, my toon is listed.. In most 5 mans I pull over 1900+ dps overall at the END of the run.. that's pretty exceptional considering boss fights bring my dps down a lot. Of course my high dps is coming from the AOE trash pulls.. but still, it's nice to do over 2k dps average for most of a run.
I haven't even tried the 15/5/51 build yet.. if it's that's good I will definately give it a shot.. As suspected, I haven't noticed much of a improvement from choosing imp cleaving to be honest..
Originally Posted by Astemus
My standard reply to most people questioning the 15-5-51 and it's viability "tanking" is...look at my build, what "tanking" talent did i skip? Looking at your link that you provided, what makes 3/3 endless rage = tank spec "must"? and why is a full 5/5 cruelty a tanking "must"? If take those 8 points and add them to your "left over" points...guess what, I got my 15-5-51 build...tada
If you look at the majority of 15-5-51 builds, and compare them to "tank" specs...they really aren't that big of difference. In my personal case, I chose to drop points of "rage" talents. It's easy for me to say, so you'll have to take my word on this, i've been 15-5-51 since the day i hit 80 (November). Now I'm not saying I invented the spec, but I was running it long before there was ever a post about it.
My motivation is simple, I enjoy 5-man runs and my guild has chosen to use a Druid as "MT" and a Paladin as "OT". My guild has never asked me to spec Fury and has never had an issue with me remaining protection even though I never tank anything 25-man outside of the occasional add and the additional Drakes in Sartharion. Speccing 15-5-51 is fun, no doubt, but it's every bit as viable as any other "tank" build.
Last edited by Canariensis; 01-23-2009 at 08:53 AM.
While I agree with your stance on the 15-5-51...why do you have to drop 3 points in shield spec, would be my question to you?
Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma
I see a lot of people drop 3 points in shield spec (which is fine, i guess), but why?
When was the last time rage was an issue? Do you "really" need Puncture and Focussed Rage? I have not had either talent for months. When I run 5-man I AoE tank (rage not an issue); When I run 10-man I am usually the "MT" (boss hitting me = rage not an issue); When I run 25-man, I help tank trash and the occassional add (rage not an issue) on bosses I put on DPS gear and try to pretend i'm doing something important (i'm really not...it's not that great...but I keep Demo shout and Commanding up)
As I indicated in a previous post, i've been 15-5-51 since hitting 80. I personally think we carry a shield for a reason - to block. Since hitting 80, it has been my goal to keep Dodge/Parry around 20-22% and maximize Block (i'd like to think SBV was good for something beyond ZOMG Big Slam Numbers). I would never drop 3 points out of parry...I would never drop 3 points out of dodge...why do people think it's ok to drop 3 points out of block? for what Endless rage?
Canariensis, the main point behind me posting about this is that people are pushing the 15/5/51 spec on everyone, saying that if you don't use it, you're a newb. I really just would like to see a more general spec pushed on people asking for advice and give them a bit more room to make their own decisions.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for example (5/3/54) would be closer to what I would suggest for someone looking for a standard spec. You then choose what other talents you need. From here you can drop 3 points from Focused Rage or Shield Spec, and put 2 points in Cruelty, and then spec into deep wounds via the arms tree. Or you can put 5 points into Cruelty, and the rest into imp spell reflect/puncture/imp HS/whatever you want.
This kind of advice gets people thinking about their spec more as it should be, personalization based on what you'd like to do.
Honestly, as much as my original post sounds like it's attacking the spec itself, it's not (in fact I'm specced 15/5/51 right now!). It's more how the general idea of a base spec is all but abandoned for the latest fad, and people who don't understand their spec never will if they're spoon fed these kinds of things.
As an aside, it's rather annoying reading people's posts where they say "I've been 15/5/51 since I was born, not saying it was my idea, but...". Those kinds of comments don't belong in this forum.
As annoying as hearing the smartest warrior spec refered to as a "Fad" or that the folks using it are mindless sheep who are spoon fed their specs.
Originally Posted by Astemus
I can see how that would be annoying.
I don't pick up puncture, I am however against taking away 3/3 focused rage. Because threat is most sensitive at the start of the fight, and that's also when rage starvation can happen, -3 rage on everything I've got is a pretty big deal, especially with 2 rage revenges, or bloodrage/shield slams. But having puncture is definitely not part of the 15/5/51 spec.
A fad isn't a bad thing. Perhaps bandwagon would be less offensive? Either way, my point still stands. I'm trying to illustrate a point, not bash the spec.
Originally Posted by loquatious
I actually never said that at all, nor do I think that. I'm simply saying that we, as a community, shouldn't be copy/pasting the same spec for people asking "wahts a good spec 4 me ima tank warrior" as I see all too often. If you would take the time to read, you would see that I was saying we shouldn't be spoon feeding the masses, and not that whoever uses it is being spoon fed.
Originally Posted by loquatious
15/5/51 is a great spec, but it's not the only one as many people have pointed out. There are more traditional specs, such as 5/8/58, and more extreme specs like the Unrelenting Assault builds being hashed out.
Give people a more generalized spec and let them make their own way of it. Otherwise, when the winds change and they need their spec to do something else, or god forbid, DW gets nerfed, they're capable, instead of coming back asking for seconds.
What's annoying is that people that advocate using any other spec (whether or not it's good, bad, or indifferent) seem to be viewed here as crackpots or trolls.
There are plenty of people out there who are just going to spec 15/5/51 because Ciderhelm says it's best. Most of us here know why it works, and why we should spec that way, but there's also tons of followers out there. You all write about them in your blogs, right?
Why discuss it at all if all you're gonna do is make people feel like morons for even bringing it up?
Excuse me? Ciderhelm right now is spec'd Relentless Assault. and he himself specs around to get Imp Spell Reflect for Malygos and has said to do so. He as well as the rest of us here never called any of you guys crackpots or trolls, we always ALWAYS ask "what do you lose/gain by going your spec versus the 15/5/51" and we often tell you that we sacrifice 3% block to gain a good bit of damage. Often the argument is that you want a more "traditional mitigation spec" but what survival talents are you giving up other than the 3% block? Or as others have mentioned if you seriously don't have rage issues (i can't imagine this to be so true that it'd be worth it but to each their own) you can do a 15/5/51 spec with 5/5 shield spec by removing 3/3 focused rage, or take some points out of gag order (which defeats the purpose of a maximal dps spec but again, your play style).
Originally Posted by Mhoram
We aren't trying to belittle the OP here. but the tone he came into this thread is the problem. "obsession" is how he coined it. Obsessions are normally seen as bad things. when obviously 15/5/51 has been a thought out, well discussed spec that appeared in our NEWS when Cider suggested it at first, and has mapped out exactly why he took it and what he feels he sacrificed for it and the consequences. There's a difference between making someone feel like a moron, and just trying to point out that his "more survival oriented" viewpoint doesn't hold when there really isn't a loss of survival.
This thread is done. Spec how you want, do it how you want. We've given our ideas and viewpoints as to why 15/5/51 is a GREAT spec to use at 80 for varying situations and possibilities. We're not advocating to blindly follow Ciderhelm. We're not advocating to blindly follow anyone. READ THE DISCUSSIONS, MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS. If you do this, I'd find it hardpressed for anyone to look at the 15/5/51 spec and say it's retarded, at the least bit it's a raid viable spec.