Hopefully this deep wounds nerf will throw people back into thinking about other fun specs.
I've been reading tankspot for a while now, and for the most part, it's been a valuable tool for me. I like to read about people's theories on different things including specs, rotations, and other non standard things.
However, it seems that everyone is obsessed with this deep wounds build. Honestly, I'd like to see all these WWS where the 100-200 dps increase made the difference between a wipe and a kill, or talk to your healers and ask if you doing more damage helped them heal you better with despite the extra incoming damage.
I love alternative specs, but when people are telling new tanks and others asking for a standard tank spec that 15/5/51 is the standard and the only spec a warrior should be, it really annoys me.
Listen, your tanks. I know it's fun to do damage too, but a build that sacrifices mitigation at all for more damage isn't a standard tank build. I am far from an expert but Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is more like the standard tanking spec, leaving 4 points to put into either imp spell reflect, puncture, or imp HS.
I'm sure that ciderhelm is a great tank, but think for yourselves. And let's discuss! That's what makes this site great.
Hopefully this deep wounds nerf will throw people back into thinking about other fun specs.
Well, I agree to most of what you said. I started using a Deep Wounds build a few weeks ago and I like it alot. I'm not a real numberchruncher, nor a more than average tank, but when I first hit 80 I had some issues with keeping aggro from those who came from TBC with good gear since I was only in WOTLK quest greens and blues. But now as my gear is slightly better, keeping aggro is easier and dealing a bit more damage just seems like the right thing to do.
DW build is the only way a Warrior can keep up with the other 3 tank classes in damage/threat output.
Tanking isnt all about mitigating damage, threat plays a large role as well and prior to WOTLK agro was a non issue but with DPS regularly putting out 3-4K zone wide parses, threat is starting to be something we need to be aware of.
Is another 100-300 TPS allowing the DPS to kill something 30 seconds earlier worth it?.. in my mind yes. Warriors, even with DW lag substantially behind JK's, Pallys and even Druids in damage these days, a DW build helps close that gap.
It might not be right for you, perhaps most of your DPS are in the 1.5-2.5K range and your way out in front in threat, but I am finding putting out 3-4K TPS is barely enough some fights to maintain a good lead.. i often have some specific classes creeping up on me and while it's not an issue right now, i certainly dont want to take steps backwards in TPS generation while they are making gigantic leaps forward.
Your spec should advance with your gear, there is no 1 single spec you go into once you hit 80 that you stay in forever.. as your gear gets better and your survivability plateus you need to still be about to out threat the DPS who ramp up pretty quickly.
I used the spec before Cider posted it most of us simply read WWS reports and watch our incoming damage.
We allocate our points into the "must have" talents and decide what to do with the rest.
I went through all of BC with Puncture but dont need it anymore, I'm getting plenty of rage so I dump it.
Armored to the Teeth is proven to have better TPS/DPS returns than Cruelty so I take it before cruelty.
The ONLY Avoidance/survivability talents sacrificed are 3 points in shield block and 2 points in Spell reflect - thats all you get that the standard 15/5/51 doesent give you.
Show me a WWS where that saved anyones ass (except on malygos where many tanks will spec into imp SR).
I'm sure, Sartharion ignores the 3 additional % block I would have more with your (@OP) talent spec and just continues to burp 30k breathes in my general direction. No offense, but I choose my spec based on what encounter I will see that evening.
E.g. a typical Naxx evening will see only my highest threat spec, because my beloved fury warriors will pull up to 3k tps and more on some bosses.
Malygos P2 on the other hand is a good time for imp. spell reflect, which I don't need in Naxx.
Sure, in early gear stages, your healers will thank you for extra mitigation, but saying one spec is 'standard' for all situations is a bit narrow-minded.
I thoroughly love the 15/5/51 for 3 distinct reasons.
The first, and admittedly least important reason, is being able to crank out some serious DPS (in comparison to TBC anyways).
Secondly, and tied into the first reason, using DW spec gives me an idea who is lacking and how badly when it comes to DPS for instances. At this point, I am finally seeing my DPS go back down to where it should be: at 4th, above the healer. Unfortunately, I am still seeing some groups (both PUGs and guild) in which I am at or near the top in terms of DPS (both overall damage and DPS throughout the instance).
Last, and certainly the most important to me, is that while doing quests (daily and regular), the ease which I can dispatch mobs makes this build invaluable to me.
I will agree that there are better builds for overall mitigation, but at this stage for me (I haven't even been in Naxx except for one stinking boss yet), the DW build is perfect, and until I reach end game content I see no reason to change.
The way I see it is, I'm not dying on boss-fights due to incoming damage. Unless a healer dies, goes afk, or some other irregular circumstance, I am easily kept alive with the 15/5/51 build. Also, I keep in mind that I now have "oshit" buttons on a max 5min cd, and I use them very liberally to help my healers. These are all changes from pre-3.0 WoW.
Now, lets look at the other side of the equation - Thaddius, with a 5 minute enrage timer (as well as the lag mini-boss) is a dps intensive fight. As MT on this fight, I normally pull around 3000-3500 DPS, with anywhere between 5-10% of that being DW damage. Having taken Thaddius into enrage with 1-2% remaining more than once and having to pop all my CDs and hope to high hell that I get a dodge or two before he destroys me, my (along with everyone elses) DPS contribution is definitely significant.
He is referencing Thaddius. He may even be talking about 10 man. Keep in mind your DPS in a 10 man VS a 25 man can be significantly different, especially if your 10 man comp is more caster friendly. Adding in a feral druid, an arms warrior, and a DK will provide significant increases in your dps with extra bleed damage, the 10ish percent extra crit, etc.
I have noticed up to as much as a 300-500 DPS difference in my 10 man VS 25 man damage in certain fights, Patchwerk being one that comes to mind.
high expertise/hit and good knowledge of when to use what ability makes a significant difference.
But to stay on topic: Choosing the "right" talents makes a difference. too.
It's called the standard spec as most bosses are not really able to kill you ( as mentioned above) - That this 15/5/51 is the best threat spec might sound like an annoying "Cider says it's best so let's stop thinking about anything else!", but there are no comparable talents available and it's proven to be superior to 8 points in fury so why bother about other specs, if this particular one gives the most of what we need the most ?
P.S. BTW, my DW ticks account for account 12% of my damage on that fight. 5-8% on other boss fights.
Thanks, thought I was doing something horribly wrong, and my apologies for hijacking the thread.
Puncture and 5/5 Cruelty are worse damage than the Deep Wounds path. It seems that your big issue is how can I put together a reasonable Deep Wounds spec and have Shield Specialization maxed out. That's a good question. You probably can't, but moving the points from AttT to it may be a good route.
The nerf will likely just result in a different cookie-cutter spec tbh.
Loyalty above all, except Honor.
You don't lose anything relevant to pick up Deep Wounds. If an encounter is really just destroying your tank, you can respec for mitigation. Nothing right now calls for it if you have the gear.
The mitigation talents you can get if you drop DW are very minor, you already get all of the major ones in the spec.
Add to the fact that if you've been clearing content for a while, like we have, your DPS is getting pretty damn well geared. Which in turn means that if they are worth a damn they are putting out some very good dps. I don't have a DPS in my raid putting out less than 3k, on some fights, like maly they get spikes to over 5k. Every threat building tool that we have should be used, the added damage is just a bonus.
Puncture, anger management, are just not needed in a raid enviornment where you are in endless rage situations. Hell I'm constantly just trying burn it, HS is never not queued.
At this point in content I think that this is the best everday build, you have fights like maly where you can use improved SR but honestly I don't and we one shot malygos damn near everytime.
Going forward in Ulduar we might need to reconsider this spec, but like i said earlier in this content it works great. Who knows what ulduar will bring.
Good points from everyone. I'm sure that the deep wounds spec works for alot of people who enjoy it, but my frustration comes from people pushing the 15/5/51 spec as the new required tank spec.
In my guild, we only do 10-man content, and while we have superb dps, I've never had agro pulled off me on a boss. Trash pulls are different, and I may lose a single to the fury warrior or maybe a couple to the mage, but shortly after they are dead because the reason they pulled is because they just got a great string of crits on a mob i only had aoe threat on.
The World of Warcraft Armory in case anyone was interested. I'm pretty well geared, and recently switched some stam out for expertise because the healers seemed to be getting bored with me having over 28k hp. I have some decent gear and have never been in a situation where the DPS outgeared me by alot. These aren't standard situations though.
I agree completely that you should spec how you feel is best. 15/5/51 may be just the ticket for you. However, it's not the best spec for all tanks, and that's what I have an issue with. People come here for advice on tanking, and there are multiple ways they could go. But when they come for advice and 10 people all tell them spec for deep wounds, they think that is the way they're supposed to spec.
I have 2 points in spell reflect cause it's kinda fun to hit in some heroics where the whole group is taking a hit at once, and also provides 4% spell avoidance, which is also nice. I have 5/5 shield spec because the extra 3% block is more mitigation than nothing. Puncture is kinda lackluster and I'll probably drop it for imp HS at some point whenever i respec, but it's really not a big deal for me which is why I haven't changed it. These are the kinds of things that all people have to decide on their specs. Spec how you like.
Great responses again, I'm eager to hear what others have to say so I'll post this wall of text.