What Talents NOT to Get.

[Feanorr]

Frost Aura and Acclimation are also very valuable but come with an asterisk of your raid group. If you have and intend to use resist totems/auras, then Frost Aura has reduced value, though I maintain that if you only have one or two shamans, or one or two pallies, then it's better to rely on Frost Aura and have them applying imp Dev Aura, imp Ret Aura, imp Conc Aura, etc. Additionally, Frost Aura is always on, which can be nice smoothing for trash, etc. Acclimation is a great buff. If you're taking periodic damage it is nice, if you're taking regular damage it's nicer, if you're taking constant damage, it's too good not to take. The gauge is if you're taking sporadic hits and only when you mess up, you may get little value out of the proc, if you're getting consistant but spaced out shots it'll give you some protection, but not the most. If you're taking continual damage like Sapphiron, this buff is massive, and you can laugh off that silly frost damage.

The problem with aclimatation and even frost aura is first that it's very situational and second in situation where it could be usefull you better manage to get something else.
Saphiron for exemple: frost aura could be usefull if you have no druid, no pally and no shaman; well you better change your raid composition and take one of them. Aclimatation could be usefull too, but again you better go with a resist frost gear and be sure to be at resist cap at all time; at least if you are main tanking it, and if you are not the interest of aclimitation is greatly reduced or maybe even nulified (does it proc on the aura damage?).

Personnally, there is no boss fight that I made where frost aura and aclimitation could really matter and are not easily replacable (by gear switch or raid composition).

But like I said in my first post, some will find some use of it; that's one of the fun thing about DK tank, we have many choice to make. We got only a very little part of our talent point that are mandatory (if that's correct in english ^^). Coming from paladin tank where you have 60 points that any serious tank will take, it's nice to have more choice ^^

[Blueduck3285]

Satorri
I know your going to kick my butt for asking this but when we have frost press on, does the amount of AP we get from Bladed Armor increase? Im sure I already know the answer to this but your posts are the ones I turn to for re-assureance that I am actually understanding things and not just regurgitating them.

[Blueduck3285]

The problem with aclimatation and even frost aura is first that it's very situational and second in situation where it could be usefull you better manage to get something else.
Saphiron for exemple: frost aura could be usefull if you have no druid, no pally and no shaman; well you better change your raid composition and take one of them. Aclimatation could be usefull too, but again you better go with a resist frost gear and be sure to be at resist cap at all time; at least if you are main tanking it, and if you are not the interest of aclimitation is greatly reduced or maybe even nulified (does it proc on the aura damage?).

Personnally, there is no boss fight that I made where frost aura and aclimitation could really matter and are not easily replacable (by gear switch or raid composition).

But like I said in my first post, some will find some use of it; that's one of the fun thing about DK tank, we have many choice to make. We got only a very little part of our talent point that are mandatory (if that's correct in english ^^). Coming from paladin tank where you have 60 points that any serious tank will take, it's nice to have more choice ^^

I have found that both are extremely usefull all the time. Trash aside, Acclimation has helped saved my butt more times that I can count. I proc's rather frequently and as for if it proc's off auras, I am not sure.

I dont build a frost tanking spec without either.

[Nerlth]

My computer broke. /sigh It's at the shop, if it can't be fixed, I won't be getting a new one until the weekend.

I will still lurk when I am able too. Huge update on the list coming soon at the latest on the weekend.

[Cadran]

A few notes. Ebon plague is not the same as curse of elements or boomkins. It can be spread in an AoE pull to all mobs with pestilence. Also melee tend to destroy other classes on boss dps. Many boss fights require mobility on behalf of these classes. Including but not limited to switching between zombies and boss, changing spots for charges moving through lava walls. 15% runspeed gets them dpsing quicker meaning a huge dps raid buff and helps with many boss mechanics.

[Satorri]

Faenorr, we're saying the same thing about Frost Presence, it does not stack with the resist from a few other sources, so it's best taken based on your usual or expected raid comp. Acclimation, I heavily disagree, and Sapph is the best example. On Sapph Acclimation will stay fully stacked giving you a whopping 150 frost resist on top of any other buffs. Even in the absence of any other resist buffs Frost Aura + Acclimation is 230 frost resist, which is worth a heavy resist set without sacrificing all your other gear (i.e. dps, healing, or tanking stats since Sapph still does a healthy amount of physical damage). If you question this, ask Merck he's been using this for a while. In general you have to appreciate what resistance does, it acts in part like armor against the spell damage reducing that sort of damage by a %, it also boosts your chance to get a "resist." There are 4 kinds of resist and the chance for that improves as you get more resistance. These are 25/50/75% and full resists (that % cut off the damage). The chance to get such resists are on top of the base reduction. In Wrath, if you think spell damage is situational then you've either not been tanking with talents to affect spell damage, you don't have addons that show you just how many magic damage effects you take, and/or you just haven't been paying attention to that stuff. You surely don't need spell damage reduction abilities at all times, or at all, but it can be a MAJOR effect. Best way to illustrate that is to take a WWS on your next Naxx run then flip through all the damage taken tabs of your raid and see just how much spell damage is taken. Remember, these things cover ANY damage that is not physical.

Ducky, ma friend, Frost Presence armor increase DOES increase the AP from Blade Barrier, though I've noticed when flipping presences the AP on the character sheet doesn't always update immediately, or quickly, though it does update eventually.

Cadran, Ebon Plague is the same thing, it is an identical buff. Your first point is a good one though, Ebon Plague is easier to apply and maintain on all the mobs in a pull more easily than either of the other options, and so it is usually better to have the DK applying these buffs if you're planning talents for a regular raid group. As for melee dps vs ranged dps, as always that's really just a matter of player skill more than class differences, but again, it is a good explanation of the value of Unholy Aura.

In the next patch they should be fixing it so that the other buffs don't bump Ebon Plague, even multiple DKs applying Ebon Plague.

[Satorri]

I am really looking forward to 3.0.8, becouse i want to try out the new blood build, couse I tend to enjoy MT-ing and single target tanking(thats why I am rolling with Frost now). In the case of talents, when you roll with Blood threatwise, would you get Subversion, VS, Dark Convinction, Bloody Vengeance or you wouldnt rely on crits, however with blood u can have a nice crit chance? So are these maybe, always or never, if we can say any of them(I dont like generalization)? Considering that the purpose of the spec would be high threat generation and single target tanking.

From my playtime with Blood tanking the big picture is a fundamental to match the other trees. To get the best threat you have to play into the best compounding bonuses you can get from the tree(s). Blood's strength lies in its crit-based damage buffing (in addition of course to the crits themselves. That means keeping Bloody Vengeance stacked, first and foremost, since that is a good 9% across the board damage buff. To do so you want to get every crit chance buff you can reasonably get, so, Dark Conviction, Subversion, and Vicious Strikes (Unholy on the last one) are all great for that. Beyond that, though this has undesirable side effects for me, the tree buffs Heart Strike heavily. Heart Strike + Subversion (nicely spammed with DRM) can allow you to keep up a full stack of Bloody Vengeance, keep high uptime on Abom's Might, and proc plenty of Sudden Doom DC's. Combine this with the new cleave feature and HS is more valuable than ever.

Without the cleave this makes Blood Knights serious single target threat, if you play it well, but with the cleave it makes them just about on par with Warriors, though I suspect the Morbidity DnD won't quite measure up to Tclap simply because it's more costly in rotation. Tab targetting would make the new Blood Knight a stronger group tank.

I think the increase in baseline hardiness will be a big step in making Blood a little more solid as a tank (right now it feels a bit squishy since you rely on self-healing and being easier to heal, rather than taking less damage).