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Thread: Glyph of Devastate (double check me)

  1. #1
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    Glyph of Devastate (double check me)

    Now, I really haven't seen this anywhere else. Satrina's threat values post goes over Glyph of Sunder Armor (DevDam + 5%AP on main target, 345 + 5%AP on secondary target) but doesn't touch Glyph of Devastate. Everywhere I have looked I've seen people say either 1) It gives bonus threat for the first 2 casts of devastate on a mob or 2) It doesn't give any bonus threat, it just lets you get your sunder stacks up faster.

    So I tested it out today. I downloaded Satrina's threat data Addon and double-checked the values for Devastate Threat (Damage + 5% AP) in order to confirm that was correct and also to familiarize myself with the data reporting of the addon.

    Here is a snippet of my non-glyphed devastate data:

    Threat: target - 862783
    Threat: 0x... Sunder Armor - nil
    Threat: 0x... Devastate - 558
    Threat: target - 1003988

    So that's 141205 threat, normalized to 681 threat. Minus 558 Devastate damage is 123. My Attack Power during this test is 2477 (*5% = 123.85). I repeatedly cast devastate on the target up to 11 or 12 times before it died and all of the devastate data looked the same as the above: 123 bonus threat.

    So then I put on the Glyph of Devastate.

    Here is a snippet of my glyphed data:

    Threat: target - 2222168
    Threat: 0x... Sunder Armor - nil
    Threat: 0x... Sunder Armor - nil
    Threat: 0x... Devastate - 650
    Threat: target - 2407953

    So that's 185785 threat, normalized to 896 threat. Minus 650 Devastate damage is 246. That's 10% of my Attack Power, twice the 123 I was seeing un-glyphed.

    Note that I spammed devastate on this mob (a wolf under Dalaran) and connected with devastate 10 or 11 times before it died. EVERY cast of devastate looked like the above, doing 246 bonus threat per devastate, regardless of whether it was the first, second, or tenth devastate I cast.

    Someone please feel free to recreate and confirm my testing here. I think this newly discovered data will really impact people's selection of glyphs. It's a nice Full Time threat bonus for devastate. It makes the glyph continually useful in boss fights by adding more threat, and it makes Tab-Target or Mouseover-Target Devastating for trash and heroics even better.

  2. #2
    Given how often we Devastate our targets, this would translate into less than a 50 TPS increase? Apologies if I'm way off on this estimation. (And no, I'm not saying that would be trivial.)

  3. #3
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    Great work!
    I've been using glyph of devastate for some time, but never thought it would actually increase threat aswell.

  4. #4
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    Interesting.

    It's probably worth using even with how rare Devastate is compared to what it used to be. The alternative glyph to drop off would be Glyph of Heroic Strike.

    I'm seeing about 1.2 - 2.2 RPS (rage per second) average from Glyph of HS. A patchwerk style fight (stand still, infinite rage) was as high as 2.2

    So if Glyph of HS is about 1.5 RPS average, and the rage will always be converted to a heroic strike, the glyph provides a gain of about...

    HS gets +15% crit chance, and with impale, crits harder (220%)

    For me, HS was 949 average hit on a particular fight.
    A regular swing was 526.
    526 * 2.0735 = 1090 threat / white swing
    HS causes 259 bonus threat.
    949 avg HS - 526 avg white swing = 423 damage gain default
    So the average difference is (423 * 1.22) * 1.15 + 256, or 849
    849 * 2.0735 = 1760 threat / HS
    1760 - 1090 = 670 threat gain from each HS press
    I think. It's very possible my math is way off, especially since this is the first thing I've done with my brain after alcohol and waking up. I'm looking at that figure and it doesn't seem right

    So lets say every time I press HS I'm gaining an average of 670 threat over a white swing, if all other abilities remain in their rotation. (Naturally, this is when utilizing HS soley as a rage dump, the purpose of it)

    If Glyph of HS is providing an average of 1.5 rage per second, and HS costs 11 rage (15-3 for Focused Rge, -1 for 1 point in imp HS, as Rend is worth using now but that's another topic).

    670 / 11 rage = 61 threat per rage.

    If Glyph of HS is 1.5 RPS, it's 92 TPS.

    Now, if Glyph of Devastate is an extra 5% of AP for each press, and you have 4800 fully raid-buffed AP (which is what I'm around), it's an additional 240 threat * 2.0735 = 500 threat/devastate.

    I used 54 Devastates on an "average" fight, not skewed too heavily in any direction in terms of "tankability" (Kel'Thuzad is the example). 54 devastates over a 3'38 fight, or 218 seconds. 218 / 54 = a devastate every 4.03 seconds, or .247 devastates/second.

    At .247 dev/seconds that's .247 * 500 = 124 threat/second from Glyph of Devastate

    I'll look at another fight, Patchwerk.
    29 Devastates used, 143 seconds.
    .202 dev / second, .202 * 500 = 100 TPS from Glyph of Devastate

    So if it's ~110 TPS average gain from Glyph of Devastate, and ~92 TPS from Glyph of HS. As you use HS more in a fight, Glyph of HS is worth even more.

    At 2.2 RPS from Glyph of HS it's 2.2*61 = 134 TPS.

    OKAY. I think that's all mostly right. Feel free to make fun of my math skills and let me know if it's wrong.

    Conclusion: Glyph of HS and Glyph of Devastate will be about equal, except Glyph of Devastate will be more useful overall due to sunders being stacked more quickly on everything you do. Further, on anything you end up being rage starved on, Glyph of Devastate pulls faaaaaar ahead where Glyph of Heroic Strike will be nearly worthless.
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  5. #5
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    Sunders

    The most useful part of devestate is of course the application of sunder armor. Sunder armor is the most useful debuff in the game from a melee dps perspective I believe. Getting a full stack up is extremely problematic.

    A max dps cycle priotizes, Shield Slam, Revenge, Concussion Blow and Shockwave all before devestate, which means it can take 21 seconds before that whole stack is applied, all without considering a sword and board proc.

    Opening: Shield Slam
    1.5 Sec: Revenge
    3.0 Sec: Concusion Blow
    4.5 Sec: Shockwave
    6.0 Sec: Shield Slam
    7.5 Sec: Revenge
    9.0 Sec: Devestate
    10.5 Sec: Devestate
    12.0 Sec: Shield Slam
    13.5 Sec: Revenge
    15.0 Sec: Devestate
    16.5 Sec: Devestate
    18.0 Sec: Shield Slam
    19.5 Sec: Revenge
    21.0 Sec: Devestate

    Each application is 785 armor reduced, assuming raid bosses have 13083 armor, each application is worth 6% armor reduction or 92.34 ArP. Each application is worth somewhere around a 2.5% increase in damage for each melee in the fight, though armor pen is a bit more complex than that.

    Napkin math: if melee is contributing 50% of your damage, each sunder application is about 1.25% raid dps increase. If you prioritized devestate instead of the concussion blow and shockwave, had glyph of devestate, 3.0 second raid dps is going up 2.5%. 4.5% another 2.5% then at 9 seconds caps out at 6.25%, otherwise it takes 21 seconds. 13 seconds faster getting 6.25% more dps for the raid. 5 minute fight, 4% of the fight is full sundered vs non-sundered, .25% of total damage done coming from getting the sunder stack up fast, patchwerk has 13 mil hps, 32.5k damage done from glyph of devestate. Heroic strike does 495 extra damage, which means you would need to crit over 65 times for the extra rage to be turned into extra heroic strikes to be worth as much as glyph of devestate. Alot of fights last alot less time than 5 minutes, meaning glyph of devestate would be a significantly larger portion of the % damage contributed.

  6. #6
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    to be fair, you should be applying a devastate before your first concblow/shockwave in your rotation with hopes of a SnB proc, only if it reaches the second devastate should you replace with with a cb/sw because at this point a SnB proc is no longer threat effective, just rage effective.

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  7. #7
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    I've been following this with interest and it just occurred to me that if the Glyph is applying the 5% AP from the second devastate, then perhaps it's also applying the extra chance to proc S&B. Has anyone noticed a higher S&B proc rate with glyphed devastate?

    I'll try to test this out tonight.

    One other point - when doing the math on glyphed HS, I don't think you want to factor in infinite rage situations like Patchwerk. It's effectively useless there since you don't need any more rage. So including the top end range of rage generation from a fight like that makes glyphed HS seem better than it really is.

  8. #8
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    well, it shouldn't have a double chance to proc, it's just applying the 2nd sunder debuff additively to the threat generated, it's not actually casting devastate twice (if it did that you'd see 2 yellow hits land right?). I think it's actually the act of casting devastate that procs SNB and the damage, on top of this cast, is a hardcoded effect of /cast Sunderarmor that gets put with devastate, the glyph basically does a /cast Sunder Armor x2 with each cast of devastate built in.

    Shouldn't affect SnB procs but it'd be best to be thorough and test it Kru =]

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  9. #9
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    I just want to point this out, because it seems to get lost in the threat discussion of the issue... Glyph of HS may not be more threat, but it should be significantly more damage than Glyph of Devastate even factoring in the added ArP at the start of a fight. This is especially true the smaller the group gets (i.e. the higher your contribution to total damage), and the higher your crit rate rises - think Loatheb, where you're well-advised to help damage by taking the spore debuff a little into the fight as well.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khordam View Post
    I just want to point this out, because it seems to get lost in the threat discussion of the issue... Glyph of HS may not be more threat, but it should be significantly more damage than Glyph of Devastate even factoring in the added ArP at the start of a fight. This is especially true the smaller the group gets (i.e. the higher your contribution to total damage), and the higher your crit rate rises - think Loatheb, where you're well-advised to help damage by taking the spore debuff a little into the fight as well.
    I'm following this with some interest as well. To specify the above a little more. Ozmata's "napkin maths" pointed out that Glyph of Devestate would be a benefit to raid dps in fights of 5 minutes and shorter. This is based on a 25 man raid situation.

    I'm just wondering whether the same hold true for a 10 man raid situation. I personally am not at all concerned about threat, I've had no issues with that yet, I am looking into maximazing my contribution to boss kills, among other things with my own DPS and increasing raid DPS.

    Furthermore, the discussion above also (as far as I can see) doesn't factor in Deep Wounds. Together with Invite Heroic Strike will almost guarantee that Deep Wounds is always up. Considering that faster weapons have a swingtimer close to or equal to the GCD Heroic Strike should (this is pure untested theoretical banter though) be much more important that Devastate. Crits will also add threat, which should work nicely on fights where infinite rage isn't reality, as well as for offtanking situations.

    So based upon what I've seen so far I'm still edging towards Glyph of Heroic Strike over Glyph of Devastate, but I'm very curious to see how further testing pans out.
    Last edited by Eide; 01-09-2009 at 03:48 AM. Reason: spelling

  11. #11
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    How would Glyph of HS increase your damage if you have an endless rage situation? Not at all compared to the Devastate Glyph.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togrin View Post
    How would Glyph of HS increase your damage if you have an endless rage situation? Not at all compared to the Devastate Glyph.
    This is what I was going to say as well. We're comparing the glyphs, not abilities. You can use both devastate and heroic strike at the same time.

    The only minor correlation is that with inflated crit rates, or I guess even standard lower crit rates, Glyph of HS can provide more rage to let you use more abilities, which is more damage, in theory.

    The reality is the damage gain may be extremely minimal, and may not outweight the threat gain of Glyph of Devastate
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    I don't always MTbecause I split it with a paladin just because it's more fair that way. I just changed to dev glyph in the past week dropping the HS glyph that gives me 10 rage. Ive not noticed a dps increase or decrease on the bosses I tanked when I looked back over parses for the past 3 weeks. My tps has stayed the same as well. What I did notice is I get my sunders up faster so I can start to use all my gcd on better things. Which just makes it more simple at the start to get the 5 stack up to increase all the melee's dps. To me thats the biggest benefit. Since I don't MT all the time I am sure changing that glyph has hurt my rage generation because I am not being hit and when I crit with HS I am not getting the free rage. It seems more to me that it just depends what you like to do. Neither glyph stands out a great deal over the other.

  14. #14
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    I can't get over how much this thread gets overlooked. Bumping it to clear up some confusions.

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  15. #15
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    Now, to throw an extra bone in there.. what happens when:

    We use a slower weapon? (For theorycrafting purposes, say Broken Promise.)
    The changes to Dev's Damage in 3.2?

    If Dev does more threat with this glyph, does this move it up in the priority list? Especially if it hits harder via Wep/3.2?

    I am by no means a math guru, anyone care to take a gander at this?

    In the future, if they fix rage/HS problems, and if Dev is comparable to HS threat, with a slower wep/glyphed/3.2'd(TM), theororeticly you can actually get Dev's off faster, than 2.5s HS's...


    Now, would our overall TPS go up? How about DPS? Low rage scenarios, infinate?

    I have a feeling that Dev might start hitting harder, for more threat, and with the exception of an infinate rage scenario, with the quick application of sunders and chance to proc SnB, might it become the better of the 2?

    Myself being someone who tanks using mouseovers after discovering them from being a healer, I have some of my single target abilities going to specific places.

    I use a focus macro to set a focus target for every pull. Everyone in my raid knows this, and can use/assist this focus. I have my SS set to target=focus for this, sometimes. (thank god for hotbars and keybinds.) What this allows me to do is hold 3 targets with the ease of say a paladin, with my SS hitting my focus, my target getting my rev(and HS) allowing me to switch, and my Devastate is on a mouseover, allowing me to spam it around and get sunders up on all my targets while watching my (Skull) and (X) targets.

    If god forbid this glyph, a slow wep, and when Dev get's 3.2'd(TM), this could make for very interesting changes.
    Last edited by Glomgore; 07-29-2009 at 05:29 PM.
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  16. #16
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    I'd be interested in seeing how the changes coming in 3.2 effect the premise discussed above.

    I currently use blocking / revenge / vig glyphs in my single target TPS spec/set. Should I consider swapping one out for devastate come 3.2?

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  17. #17
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    revenge glyph just gives you free rage cost on next HS. If the rage issues seem to be smoothed out in 3.2 there's no longer a reason to have this glyph and devastate will definitely benefit you more by glyphing it, not to mention having faster sunders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    revenge glyph just gives you free rage cost on next HS. If the rage issues seem to be smoothed out in 3.2 there's no longer a reason to have this glyph and devastate will definitely benefit you more by glyphing it, not to mention having faster sunders.

    amg thats true I hadn't considered the increased rage in 3.2.

    Thanks Kaz!

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    revenge glyph just gives you free rage cost on next HS. If the rage issues seem to be smoothed out in 3.2 there's no longer a reason to have this glyph and devastate will definitely benefit you more by glyphing it, not to mention having faster sunders.
    With the normalization of Shield Slam's benefit from BV... might we also see ourselves swapping out of Glyph of Blocking, I wonder?

    Devastate's glyph is looking tastier given I think we'll be prioritizing it higher in our priority queue.

  20. #20
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    I ran Glyph of Devastate for a good long time after Wrath came out (I tried it out the box doing heroics with the Glyph of Sundering Garbage - what a letdown that glyph was)...I always felt kinda guilty running with it in place of the Glyph of Heroic Strike - the more popular choice at the time...but I just loved those quick sunders and being able to focus on my normal threat rotation sooner. Sure rage was a problem at times, but boy did it seem worth it.

    Now that I'm running cooldown-centric glyphs in a more survivability based spec and switching between UA (to try it out) and DPS specs for my second spec I had to ditch that glyph. I never thought I'd miss it as much as I do...

    It's great to read all this theory crafting and am excited to maybe work this glyph into my spec again. Awesome thread.

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