Offspec Loot and DKP

[Stoutbeard]

I've just implemented a dkp system in our guild. It's a pretty basic bidding system. The problem that I noticed during our first run with the new system is the issue of offspec loot. I said before the raid that people could roll on an item if no one needed it and get it without using any dkp. That's fine, now comes the problem.

Our guild has notoriously bad luck with drops in Naxx. For example, today we ran with 2xWarrior Tanks, a resto Shaman, a holy Priest, a resto Druid, 2xMages, 2xDeath Knights and a ret Paladin. Almost every drop (I kid you not) was either hunter mail, rogue leather, plate healing or some melee dps one hand.

So we, sadly enough, spend most of our loot distribution time deciding whether to disenchant an item or give it to someone as offspec. Some people would then argue that they should get to roll on an item for offspec, to avoid using dkp. I thought it would be pretty clear cut, but I found that in some situations it can get fairly gray. Should that death knight get those leather dps shoulders as an offspec item or should he be spending dkp on them since they're an upgrade? Should this druid get that epic leather belt as offspec because it's "more of a boomkin item" or should he spend dkp on it since it's a clear upgrade from his blue belt? And of course the biggest problem: "It's only a little upgrade, I'd rather save my dkp. Can I need as offspec?"

I'm considering just disenchanting gear in situations such as the last example and the druid example unless that person is willing to dish out the measly 10 dkp for it. I would still like to allow, for example, a ret paladin to receive plate healing gear as offspec loot. My biggest problems is with the first example about the death knight.

Anyway, I'm just interested in hearing how other guilds handle offspec loot and any solutions that I may have overlooked.

[orcstar]

I'd say: stop using dkp in 10 men altogether.
Just use /roll and priority to the one who got least items that run.

In our guild we use a refund system to help people also take small upgrades. Leather drops but you would rather want to save the dkp for the plate shoulders: take the leather ones, and when the plate shoulders drop, you take them and get the dkp for the leather ones refunded.
Also it's a hard rule that you can never roll for your mainspec when the item is going for offspec rolls. Hoarding dkp is not what we want members to do.

[Satrina]

We use an offspec loot system. It's very simple, three categories
- Melee DPS
- Spellcasters
- Tanking

So, if you're a tank, you can bid offspec on melee DPS or spellcasting gear as appropriate. If you're melee dps, the other two categories are your offspecs. Offspec gear costs 25% of full DKP cost, and offspec bids are lower priority than mainspec so my dps gear bids don't make an actual fulltime melee dps lose gear.

Some questions inevitably come up

What about priests? Gear with hit is not healing gear, but is decent shadow gear. You can split spellcasting into healing and spell dps using hit as the criteria, if you want. We currently don't just to keep it simple, but are discussing it. The goal is to make your DKP keeper (me) not need to be an expert in what's mainspec and offspec for every class and every talent build.

What about rogues? Do daggers count as offspec for sword rogues? No. Way too much headache there. Similar for mages and hunters. Yes, it sucks for pure dps, but realistically they are not hybrids at all. The main goal of an offspec system is to make it less punishing for hybrid types to be able to fill roles as needed, not to create accounting headaches.

A bunch of others come to mind as well. You can drive yourself insane with many rules and exceptions for offspec. Keep it simple. If your people will cry about the selectiveness, tell them to suck it up then and don't do offspec.

[bondetamp]

Last guild I was in used simple bids in whisper with the highest bid getting the loot. If there was no bid, the item was de'ed. If you bid high, it is asumed it is for your main specc, if you bid low, it is asumed that you bid for offspecc. This lacks some options regarding collecting gear for off-off-specc (suach as healing gear for feral druids etc) but that seemed to be an acceptable price to pay for a transparent system.

[Lore]

First, you have to define the purpose of your offspec loot. We've done two approaches in the past.

In TBC, offspec loot was mostly toys for us, because we rarely had people respec for raid purposes. So, if someone didn't want something main spec, we just let offspec people RR. We eventually let people spend DKP on offspec items also, but never over a main spec and only after the instance had already been cleared for some time (this was done largely to keep people coming back to BT after 3 months of farming and Sunwell still months out).

That's the system that plays the nicest with DKP. In Wrath, we've been trying out loot council, so we're allowed to make a little more proactive approach to offspec loot. There's a handful of players we expect to be respeccing semi-constantly, particularly once Dual Specs are available, so we've been prioritizing offspec loot to them. I have NO idea how to fit that concept into a DKP system without just using loot council as an extension, because you don't want to gimp someone's main spec to do it.

[Satrina]

We're considering adding a third bid option, so we'd have mainspec > secondspec > toy. (Everything is automated in an addon for doing loot, so it's just a bit of code added then it just goes.)

[Rennadrel]

Easiest method, get one of every class to come and if something drops for their class, they can have it. That is how my guild works, I get offset gear from Naxx for holy even though we have a prot pally tanking the runs, even tank gear that drops and he passes on goes to me if the OT also doesn't need it.

[Jimbo]

there shouldn't be be too much problem with offspec loot in 10mans, either they can use it or they can't.

with 25mans it is worth thinking not just about what classes can use it but what classes will use it, don't give a rogue "oh i could use that in pvp" loot when theres a boomkin that will go feral when the raid is short of tanks.

i wouldn't have dkp for offspec loot, or atleast have a smaller amount...in my guild atm i am seeing lots of dps plate getting blown up that could be used by myself or the other tanks but we just don't have the dkp to burn 33% of it on offspec loot when we need to focus our main set for guild progression (we are using a fairly simple dkp system, u have the highest dkp it costs u 33% of tht). shards are good but all the shards in the world won't help you when u need someone to change spec and they haven't got the gear for it.

[Koyama]

We are using EPGP. just started, and have similar issues. We decided on 25% cost for "offspec" rolls and are using a mod that allows need/greed/pass rolls. We run into isues when people hit greed on an item that is used for main spec, but viewed as a small upgrade or side-grade, and then the item gets used every day in our raids. If we charge them full cost, we get complaints because they didn't really want the item that badly and would prefer to have waited for larger upgrades versus spending the points.

It gets into nuances as well, such as block gear for tanks, haste vs crit vs ArP, dagger spec versus sword spec, etc. So I would be interested in hearing how other guilds using EPGP have handled this issue as well. Do you just try to not police things and need>greed but not differentiate between main spec and off spec? Or should need > side-grade > offspec?

In addition, we have a few that are dedicated raiders that respec based on need for certain raids/fights and depending on who is available that night, so they are confused on what their main spec and off specs are, lol.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

[Satrina]

having two mainspec categories (need vs. sidegrade) seems unnecessarily complex. EPGP already churns points quickly, you don't need to lighten the load on people very much at all.

[kolben]

I'm not sure that a DKP system really jives with a spec priority system the way you explain your issue. Could be that I've not seen it done.

If you are going to use DKP, and people aren't willing to spend DKP on the item I'd say shard it. No free giveaways or reduced price items etc. That's the fast track to a very sloppy loot system imo. It avoids some inherent unfairness, because what you end up with is that items nobody wants are cheap or free, and things they do want they have to pay up or compete for. "Well shucks if nobody is gonna take it... It will probably just end up rotting in my bank *snicker*". I know a couple people who got a lot of healing and tanking gear essentially for free doing that exactly.

Dual specs are going to be happening soon. You might consider just doing away with the concept of "offspec". I realize it's more complicated than that, you may have to come up with some way to say "your two specs you raid with". If it's a situation of someone taking an item that's barely useful to them over someone for which it's an actual upgrade thats another thing and the guild leadership in the raid should just intervene. Most of the time simply knowing that a person it's an upgrade for wants the item is enough to make people recant when the realize it.

[Satrina]

Item rot is a fact of life in DKP. If you don't like or want that, DKP is not the system you should be using. Or, you need to be using a bid-based DKP system at least.

Dual specs will not invalidate offspecs. Most people are still going to prefer to do what they do now, and will use dual spec to fill in when needed. Offspec loot rules make it less punishing for people to get geared to fill in, which makes it even more important in my eyes to make sure that people have the gear to step in when needed, rather than having some crappy set of gear from wherever they could get it for free.

[Stoutbeard]

I want to thank you all for your input. It really did help. Basically we give offspec items to people if it's obvious that it will benefit them like our best DK dpser gets tanking gear because he often OTs for us. If it's not obvious then they get it if they can give us a solid reason for needing it, if not we just disenchant it. I've taken many of your suggestions into consideration, but at this point I don't need to put in place any extreme measure because most people don't go for offspec gear. We let members buy shards from the guild bank at 50% of AH price so there is incentive not to take offspec gear that you don't need.