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Thread: Dual Wield DK Tanking Data Collection

  1. #1
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    Dual Wield DK Tanking Data Collection

    Hey folks, I had an idea and I wanted to keep it separate and uncluttered from the other discussions.

    For all discussions on Dual Wield Death Knight tanking you can find a big discussion (in its better days) going on here.

    To pair with the theoretical discussion I'd like to collect data of DK's dual wield tanking raids and heroics, and document that along side their spec they used and gear set. I've created a WWS account, and here's a quick description of how to use it:

    For anyone who doesn't know how to WWS, when you're in game type "/combatlog" into your chat line, you'll get a confirmation message. When you're done collecting, type it again. When you log off (won't be able to remove the file until then), go into your WoW directory, into the "Logs" folder, there will be a file called WoWCombatlog. Take that file and drag it to your desktop. Go to:
    Wow Web Stats.

    I created an account so we can put all of the information under one heading:
    Username: DKDW
    password: idualwield

    Pleast use it only for this data collection. When you go to the site and log in there is big button to "Start Client." This will open a Java applet. You enter the path to your combat log (on your desktop or wherever you put it). On one tab you'll need to enter the website login, though it will fill on future use automatically. Please enter in the comments who created the data, and a short description of where, such as Naxx10, ObSanc25, etc.

    After you host it, you'll have the data compiled on a central page that you will be taken to, you can link your WWS back here to us on this post/forum, and we can see the exact breakdown of your damage taken (and done) as well as your amount of attacks parried.
    So below, if people could abstain from unhelpful commentary, I'd appreciate if folks could collect logs as they raid dual wield tanking, and post the link to the report below along with a link to your armory page (in your tank gear if you can remember to log out that way), and/or your spec and tanking stats.

    I don't mind a bit of commentary or any needed flavor for the data (special buffs, food/elixir use, etc), but otherwise I'd like to keep this thread a bit more clear of criticism and discussion.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #2
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    I've also linked to this initiative at DeathKnight.info.

  3. #3
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    Thanks, hopefully some of our tanks start making use of this, it could be VERY nice to see real numbers to lay some groundwork for the nay-sayers.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #4
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    uploaded report

    Uploaded a wws of VoA 10 and Naxx 10 (missing saph + KT as client crashed and forgot to turn back on combatlog).

    Tombfire is my character. I'll capture and upload more in the coming days.

    link to wws report:
    Wow Web Stats

    my armory link:
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    Last edited by demifiend; 01-10-2009 at 10:53 AM. Reason: added link to wws report

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Thanks, hopefully some of our tanks start making use of this, it could be VERY nice to see real numbers to lay some groundwork for the nay-sayers.
    Don't do this. This is going to be plagued with selection bias already, don't make it worse.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Man In Black View Post
    Don't do this. This is going to be plagued with selection bias already, don't make it worse.
    Not sure why you are aginst people trying to put numbers on different playstyles. Great initiative satorri.

    I had a quick look at the wws and it looked like abilities that could be parried had an average around 7% for all the boss fights. Thats not much imo for someone that's dualwielding with only 5% parry reduction from expertice.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Man In Black View Post
    Don't do this. This is going to be plagued with selection bias already, don't make it worse.
    A man in black... please respect the posters wishes next time, very poor taste on your part.

    I think its a great idea, Thank you Satorri.

  8. #8
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    Until bliz officially damns DW tanking, I haven't the slightest intention of giving up - I'm certain there's many more like me. Yes, there's the new 2h enchant next patch but still I can get 4% parry off 2 swordbreakings, so that's not bad at all.

    one thing I noticed from the wws i posted was my rune strike accounted for the highest % of my overall damage, nudging ahead of white hits. With the increase to its threat I hope this will work out well for tps come 3.0.8.

    Right now my rotation is not ideal, but again in 3.0.8 the removal of the cooldown on HB should help with that.

    It will be interesting to see how they deal with killing machine.

    Any and all feedback, aside from that of 'mr. black head / hat / mood ring', I'd very much appreciate.

    More posts to come next week, no more content to do this week.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by nips View Post
    Not sure why you are aginst people trying to put numbers on different playstyles. Great initiative satorri.
    His comment makes it abundantly clear that he's biased, and simply isn't interested in an objective discussion. I could understand any number of responses meant to improve the quality of the data being collected, but a simple plea to not collect data is borderline trollish, and shows a clear prejudice, and unwillingness to challenge preconceptions. Just ignore him.

    I've recently moved into tanking raids, and hope to have some info for you soon, Satorri. Will post data the instant I have some.

  10. #10
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    Agreed, Visual, and thank you all for contributing, more data we can get, the better we can gauge things.

    I'm wanting to add data myself, but right now my "tanking" one-handers are blues which just hurts to down-grade from my love of my 2-hand godlyonastick. Maybe I should just use my epic dps 1-handers, not like I get or need tank stats out of my 2-hander...
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #11
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    Couple of nice little items to pull from Tombfire's first contribution:

    As Nips pointed out, only 5% parried swings averaged across the all the boss fights is pretty reasonable (granted it includes fights like Gothik and Patchy where it won't matter if you're parried). On checking though, even Maexxna only parried 5.5% of the melee swings (159 swings, 5.5% parry = 9 swings).

    The other thing I'm interested in is the relative % of Rune Strikes used next to regular melee swings, since one idea we've been kicking around is that you can make use of more procs than a 2-hander.

    Taking the boss-only tally, Tomb got 591 RS vs 2722 Melee swings. That works out to 17.8% swing conversion at 57.2% dodge+parry.

    I'm going to collect some 2-hand data from my next raids to see if I can compare on the same grounds.

    Thanks Tomb for getting the ball rolling.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #12
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    Naxx 25 - plague and military wings.

    A poor capture from my perspective - we have a warrior tank that MTd most of the bosses last night.

    Shared tanking duties with Gluth, took some hatefuls on patch, was nursing blameaux / the holy guy on 4h. Nothing too exciting. Will post more captures this week as I get em.

    Using my 3.0.8 spec now, tps and dps up a lot. Killing machine in its current form is just silly. I certainly hope GC and crew don't nerf it 'into the ground'.

    If you look carefully you can see where I hit people twice in one polarity shift with the wrong charge on thaddius and survived Thank christ for AM shell (it absorbed nearly 30k), I should rly pay more attention.

    anyhows, here it is:

    Wow Web Stats
    Last edited by demifiend; 01-14-2009 at 08:16 AM.

  13. #13
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    Howling Blast is working well for you, it looks to be doubling your functional crit rate on IT/HB/FS, which is very nice. From other people's parses I've seen on the PTR, it looks like KM should be very nicely buffed for dual wield tanks. The change is surely not a nerf for us, at most it would be for dps, but I don't think even that is the case (except maybe to cap F/U fast/fast proc nuts).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Agreed, Visual, and thank you all for contributing, more data we can get, the better we can gauge things.

    I'm wanting to add data myself, but right now my "tanking" one-handers are blues which just hurts to down-grade from my love of my 2-hand godlyonastick. Maybe I should just use my epic dps 1-handers, not like I get or need tank stats out of my 2-hander...
    Actually, Satorri, it would still be a valuable contribution if you put forth your 2h data as a point of comparison, so I'd be interested in seeing it.

    I was wondering, do you want all tanking data, or only for when you're the MT? I've been doing OT in my guild's raids so far, and I haven't been uploading WWS data because I didn't figure it would be as good as MT data, but if you want to look at the OT perspective as well, I'll upload it from now on.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Howling Blast is working well for you, it looks to be doubling your functional crit rate on IT/HB/FS, which is very nice. From other people's parses I've seen on the PTR, it looks like KM should be very nicely buffed for dual wield tanks. The change is surely not a nerf for us, at most it would be for dps, but I don't think even that is the case (except maybe to cap F/U fast/fast proc nuts).
    Yeah the KM change should be nice for tanks of both 2 handers and DW variety, I see it really only as an attempt to curb the damage of fast/fast dps specs as I know I've wasted alot of KM procs just because HB was still on cooldown, and I could probably proc KM again by the time HB did come off cooldown.

  16. #16
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    Well, any tanking data will be helpful (provided you are tanking, that's what we're after here, right?). Please do make note, on the header for the WWS and/or on your post here to denote which fights you tanked and any other similar flavor to the fights that we would want to know. We can certainly decypher it from the reports, but if you spell it out ahead of time it'll help.

    I'll refrain from posting any 2-hand tanking reports on that, but I can share some of my own, otherwise. I've been taking a back seat lately and letting my co-tank run the raids. It's nice to be a quiet participant sometimes, I can talk your head off when I get passionate/excited about something. Can you tell by my posts? =)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  17. #17
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    uploaded another report at: WWS Loading...

    MTing on Malygos 25, grand widow faerlina (letting her enrage). Other stuff in the report is junk, just us hard failing to sarth + adds, and the rest of spider wing in naxx25 etc.



  18. #18
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    Uploaded a WWS from a 10 man Naxx to my own profile. I am using a 10/42/19 spec at the moment (can Armory me I am camped in my tank gear and with the same spec). I was able to maintain 4-5k TPS easily on single targets and I was spiking as high as 7k at times depending on how crits were working. For Patchwerk I was the hurtful tank and had to back off a few times to not pass the Paly (he was having threat issues but won't go into that) and I MT'd everything else on the report.

    I am in dire need of a second tanking weapon at the moment but my tank stats aren't necessarily hurting at the moment. Bear in mind this was only with 25 expertise.

    Wow Web Stats

    Parry

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nips View Post
    Not sure why you are aginst people trying to put numbers on different playstyles. Great initiative satorri.
    No, I'm against characterizing it as "Sticking it to the naysayers!" That just screams out "Please only submit glowing WWSes," and is a sterling example of unhelpful commentary. Selection bias is going to be a natural problem, so let's not aggravate things.

    Anyway, DK threat is super-easy to figure out. Take your DPS, subtract pet DPS, multiply that by 2.0735, add any MD or TOTT threat. It'll be a little more complex after 3.0.8 but not by that much. For example, in this Patchwerk, Parry did 4300-ish TPS.
    Last edited by A Man In Black; 01-17-2009 at 01:59 AM.

  20. #20
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    Selection bias would be to only show the fights where it works well. If people are submitting full raid tanking reports where they are dual wield main tanking, that is useful information and goes heavily in the "this is not a zomgparrygib" column.

    This is raw data collection, not a statistical analysis. If it can be done, it can be done, this is just for some results to sandbox with.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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