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Thread: Everyday Build: Toughness Vs Shield Specialization

  1. #21
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    I'm glad they made the changes because at least it makes shield slam not a total piece of garbage power. I just don't get where they are going with shields in general. They backed themselves into a corner with a mechanic that if they ever make it as strong as it should be it would let us solo stuff we shouldn't solo and make us invincible in pvp. Thats my guess as to what it all stems down to, pvp.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    so what about the large bit of us warriors that are hovering around 15% block chance? I'm sure that changes the numbers a bit, but if you finalize the script can you check it at 12%, 15% and 18%?
    The numbers I am using are projecting future gear as Xav was talking about, since this question is more than less irrelevant in the current content. I will plug in current gear as well yep. I should have time to doublecheck the code later today.
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  3. #23
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    To clarify, armor is not diminishing returns.

    It's Linear, I think there was a post about this sometime back in BC.

    Basicly stating, the MORE armor you have, the MORE valuable each point of it becomes, it's why those necklaces, rings, and trinkets with armor on them are considered so OP.

    If your at 25k armor, and another tank at 26k armor, guess who's gonna mitigate damage better?

    The theory behind this is that what's his name law. No matter how much miss+dodge+parry+block you have, eventually, hits will go through it, and trust me you, you want something mitigating those hits.

    The thing people have to remember about shields, is that we're only on the first tier of them. Think back to Kara, remember when you got to that gruul shield how badass of an upgrade it was? This is why DK's frost presence is getting buffed. Shields will come, and seeing warriors pushing 30k armor will not surprise me.

    With that said, it is my understanding that the game is moving toward warriors and palies favoring armor+block to turn themselves into more effective health tanks. The days of stacking 102.4 avoidance are gone, as are crushing blows. Take what avoidance you get from your tank gear, and from that point, stack armor+SBV+health. This will push your DPS, your threat, and even out your damage making your healers life a little less stressful (which does not mean easier). Taking predicable damage in a steady way is very mana efficient for yer healers, especially them druids. Taking large chunks of damage due to high avoidance makes healers have to be twitchy, and a twitchy healer drives you crazy in Vent ^_^
    November 23, 2004 8:27:03 AM - Glomgore 10+ Years of tanking? Priceless

  4. #24
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    Firstly Satrina: Thanks again I am really interested in seeing your results. Also what type of script are you using? Perl?

    Second I just want to clarify something with Glomgore and some others on here.

    you seem to say there is no diminishing returns and it scales linear with maybe be true. but effectively there is something that isn't linear about the 2% armor increase. my chart on the first page I used the equation from Wowwiki:

    Formulasamage reduction - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

    %Reduction = (Armor / ([467.5 * Enemy_Level] + Armor - 22167.5)) * 100

    And as you can see starting from 16K to 30K armor removing 2% of the current armor yields a %Reduction of a decrementing amount.

    so for example 16 K normal and reducing that by 2% = ~15686
    the % reduced drops from 49.027 to 48.532 a difference of 0.495

    for 30 K normal and reducing that by 2% = ~29412
    the % reduced drops from 64.329 to 63.874 a difference of 0.456

    So to me that means that 2% more armor when your armor is large doesn't effect the % reduced by the same amount as if your armor is small. In an absolute sense it seems that the more armor you do have the less valuable it is. But with SBV an increase will always increase the amount of health saved by that amount. The only problem is that mobs obviously tend to hit harder therefore it is almost the same as armor where the harder the bosses hit the let valuable SBV is since %reduction wise the harder the bosses hit the less %reduction you will get from a block.

    The way around this and is obvious but will make blocks almost the same as armor where instead of SBV it would be a % of damage reduced (And since block damage comes after armor reduction this % would be very valueable). The problem with this it blows the Shield slam modifer out of the water unless they balance it by saying your SS will do % more damage instead of a physical number.

    Coming back to the armor seeming to diminish, that is why I concluded that at some point of armor the 2% extra will not be as good as 1% in shield (predicting that the SBV will increase dramitically).

    I would love to hear your thoughts. all comments are welcome.

    Gajanator - ZUL!

  5. #25
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    Perl is an abomination. I just use Lua for most fast scripting things, actually.

    I refined my model somewhat, and included doge/parry/miss into the mix. Again, 300 seconds of combat simulated with a 2 second swing timer, then run that 5 minute battle 1000 times.

    Edit: Small error in the script. See the attachment to my next post, below, for correct numbers

    Interestingly enough, it seems to be more or less a tie. Will definitely fiddle with it some more
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  6. #26
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    Really interesting indeed. It seems that you have choose really interesting mix of parameters.

    So it does seem possible. I am itching to get back to my city to try out the mix of specs.

  7. #27
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    I was wondering if you can do the same thing but using this as a baseline:

    boss hit = 27000 ac = 25000 bvalue = 1500 bchance = 0.22 dodge = 0.25 parry = 0.18 miss = 0.08

    +1% block dmg = 787382825
    +2% armour dmg = 782955170
    armour 99.43767% of shield block

    And vary the parameters +/- one at a time this way we can see individual effects of this ratio. I would say Dodge /parry/ miss would not matter since both armor and shield block are both mitigation but there is a chance the number of times hit would effect this.

    hopefully by isolating all the variables effects on this ratio it will reveal more.

    A tedious task so I am sorry but would be very interesting to see.

    ex.
    1) boss hit = 24000 ac = 25000 bvalue = 1500 bchance = 0.22 dodge = 0.25 parry = 0.18 miss = 0.08

    +1% block dmg = ?
    +2% armour dmg = ?
    armour ?% of shield block

    2) boss hit = 30000 ac = 25000 bvalue = 1500 bchance = 0.22 dodge = 0.25 parry = 0.18 miss = 0.08

    +1% block dmg = ?
    +2% armour dmg = ?
    armour ?% of shield block

    3) boss hit = 27000 ac = 22000 bvalue = 1500 bchance = 0.22 dodge = 0.25 parry = 0.18 miss = 0.08

    +1% block dmg = ?
    +2% armour dmg = ?
    armour ?% of shield block

    4) boss hit = 27000 ac = 28000 bvalue = 1500 bchance = 0.22 dodge = 0.25 parry = 0.18 miss = 0.08

    +1% block dmg = ?
    +2% armour dmg = ?
    armour ?% of shield block

    5) boss hit = 27000 ac = 25000 bvalue = 1200 bchance = 0.22 dodge = 0.25 parry = 0.18 miss = 0.08

    +1% block dmg = ?
    +2% armour dmg = ?
    armour ?% of shield block

    6) boss hit = 27000 ac = 25000 bvalue = 1800 bchance = 0.22 dodge = 0.25 parry = 0.18 miss = 0.08

    +1% block dmg = ?
    +2% armour dmg = ?
    armour ?% of shield block

    7) boss hit = 27000 ac = 25000 bvalue = 1500 bchance = 0.19 dodge = 0.25 parry = 0.18 miss = 0.08

    +1% block dmg = ?
    +2% armour dmg = ?
    armour ?% of shield block

    8) boss hit = 27000 ac = 25000 bvalue = 1500 bchance = 0.25 dodge = 0.25 parry = 0.18 miss = 0.08

    +1% block dmg = ?
    +2% armour dmg = ?
    armour ?% of shield block


    etc.

    Gajanator - Zul

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mabijaoude View Post
    I was wondering if you can do the same thing but using this as a baseline:

    ...

    And vary the parameters +/- one at a time this way we can see individual effects of this ratio. I would say Dodge /parry/ miss would not matter since both armor and shield block are both mitigation but there is a chance the number of times hit would effect this.
    Sure, that's simple. You are correct that varying d/p/m isn't a big deal. All adding them to the model does is make more realistic over the simulation.

    Edit: Re-uploaded the file, found a little error in the script and fixed it. End result is they are still very close, but armour does edge out block.
    Attached Files
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