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Thread: Question about under performers

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eunuch View Post
    Do some research and spoon feed them the specs, and rotations they should use, offer some good places to get the mats/gold together to use raid consumables, if they are on offer to them explicitly to go to heroics with them, or fill a group out without them and ask if they can jump in.

    Some people just need a chance, if you do those things and they don't change then yeah boot.
    Why is it anyone elses responsibility? Why should I, or anyone else spoon feed anyone anything?

    If I am at work, and one of my coworkers is under performing, I should do his work for him and hope he gets better?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Essarhexen View Post
    Let me give a possibly different take...

    I don't know the exact situation as the orginal poster so this may or may not apply, but here are some things to think about:

    One of the things you have to struggle with leading a guild is filling out the raid. You have raids planned and need bodies. So a few things to consider:

    - Are the underperformers reliable bodies for the raid? After all some dps is greater than zero dps.

    - Is the guild actively trying to recruit, or is it so thinly staffed that there isn't anyone else to take? It has been my experience that you need some reserves in the guild.

    - Are these underperformers here "to help out" and perhaps they really wish to step down but feel an obligation to be there to fill out the raid?

    - Do they know how to get better? Is guild atmospheres poisonous? Some people have a hard time reaching out for help or there is a lot of hostility in the guild preventing it from happening.

    If you are concerned I would try to talk to the guild leadership, but realize they can be under a lot of pressure to "make it happen." Just coming in with the "get rid of the l2p people" isn't (necessarily) going to help make things better.

    The leadership may not see "get better or /gkick" as a viable strategy for fixing things. The leaders may feel there isn't support in the guild as a whole for that, they may feel they need those people to man the raids, or they may just need some help taking a tough step.
    I'll try to shed some more light on this.

    - They are reliable to the point that the will show up once or twice a week. Will not read strats or be "raid ready". And they each have been talked to about this. Hell I even installed BigBrother in order to "shame" them into it by broadcasting to the raid who is buffed up.

    - Recruiting is slowing because we are actually running heavy. We normally get 9 - 10 healers signing up 3-4 tanks, and a TON of DPS. Right now we are in a good position to leave the under performers out o raids and still have no issue with filling it out. It's the aftermath of them not getting to go that is sickening to me. It's been explained over and over what we expect.

    - These under performers do want to raid. When they bi*ch and moan about not going, they make it obvious they want to be there.

    - They sure do know how to get better, even so, they may not posses the skill and understanding to actually execute. We have some really great officers that have sat down and spoke with them about rotations in order to maximize their DPS.

  3. #23
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    One possibility which may or may not work, depending on your guild members history etc is for the officers/rl/gm to sit down and right out a new code of conduct, run it by a couple of core raiders and then demote everyone to "social" or some rank. People are then asked to read and reply in guild forum saying that they agree to those rules, understanding that breaking them means demotion to social for a specified amount of time and they will be second choice on filling spots. Setting rules for dps is hard if not impossible but you can set rules for consumables, number of enchants, signup and attendance times.

    This has the advantage that if your officers are genuinely nice guys who battle enforcing rules, they have something to base their decisions on. Its possible (not knowing anything about your guild history) that some people actually dont want to raid "seriously", they choose not to by not signing and are free to move elsewhere, you dont have to kick members who don't sign but it gives people something to aim towards remaining a "raiding member" by good attendance, buffs etc.

    We did this in my old guild, as we started out life as a guild with no raiding rules or indeed rules of any kind and I think it worked pretty well. I know I didn't enjoy the "enforcing" side to being an officer, but well laid out rules gives you something solid to go on. They don't have to be rules about everything, just depends what your guildies will respond to.

    One idea is to make your officers sign both the guild rules and officer rules, they can be things like - be available for discussion about specs, get final raid part agreed on time etc. It may seem like a weird thing to do but fundamentally you are asking each person to take responsibiloty for his/her actions and thereby ensuring that each guildie knows that the 24 other people in a raid are as prepared and focused as they are. Yes its a game but its no fun unless everyone respects each other and does their bit to make an enjoyable evening of it.

    That was probably really waffly but I hope I got what I was trying to say across.
    **Give me a hug and I'll defend you with my life**
    Blog: http://www.tankspot.com/blog.php?550-Shortypop

  4. #24
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    We have a couple of ranks in our guild to handle things like this. Core Raiders are the people that sign up, bring their A game and know the fights. Raiders may not be able to make the time commitment or maybe need some work. We also have class leaders who will help out those that ask for advice with their class but this is by no means a spoon feeding the incompetent.
    Our policy is currently you sign up for raids - group makeup is most important and once that is met we will tend to pick core raiders over the regular raiders. We also know we raid enough that sometimes our core raiders will give up their spots to let others get a chance to get drops and become better.
    This is well known and understood and the few people who have had issues with it have gone elsewhere.

    There's plenty of instances and dungeons to run and if you don't get into the raid we have had people find pugs so they can continue to get their gear they want. If people are unmotivated to put in the effort it should be made clear to them to not expect to reap the rewards at the entire guild's expense.

    One thing we were able to do with some of our under performers who wanted to get better was to spend 20 minutes with them and one of the level 80 training dummies to show them what a difference a rotation or a food buff can make. They came around a little quicker once they saw the dps changes.

  5. #25
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    You, as a RL, has abit of responability. Your guild might have Class-Leaders or some Theorycrafters to help with rotations and specs and so on. Depending on how dedicated you/your classleaders are, you can make some small research to webpages which contains the info, or just go indeep yourself. Or just small pointers, whatever helps is good.

    But since your issue is that you have players who dont wanna follow your minimum reqs for raiding, the above wouldn't help much.
    I suggest, since you seems to have enough for filling raids, why not make some "minimum performance"-demands? Note down those who perform badly in raids and give them some kind of option. Either fix your performance-issues or you wont get sorted into raids until you fixed them. (via dummy target-practise or macros or w/e)

    my 3 cents of thoughts

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucious View Post
    Here's my dilemma. I am in a "casual" raiding guild. We raid 3 times a week, with 10 mans on off days. We expect all raiders to be raid ready. Food buffs, pots, elixirs or flasks. Knowledge of the fights...etc. Just as important, general knowledge of your class so that you can maximize your DPS.

    We have had, since BC even, a small group of people that want to be carried. They sign up for raids, expect to go, get pissed off if they are passed over, and are generally unpleasant to be around. I don’t expect them to go to the level of research that I go into as a tank. Spending lunch hours and whatnot reviewing strats and viewing videos.

    I am so fed up with the (as i like to call it) complete and utter disrespect these few people display to the rest of us. Their DPS is very poor. So much so that Tanks and even a Healer are competing with them.

    How have some of you handled this or how would you handle it if you haven't had to deal with it?
    These members sound poisonous, I have experience with this. THE problem you are dealing with in my opinion is the general attitude some people have that "casual raiding guild" = "it's okay if we suck/fail/don't try guild". Here's the problem with that kind of environment, some of you (sounds like you definitely fit this) are giving 110% the same level of effort you would have to put out in a "hardcore" raiding guild just to make the thing work. It's only a casual environment for those who are being carried and get the benefit of loot etc in spite of themselves.

    If you have the people, or are willing to recruit I'd take Satrina's advice and tailor it to what expectations you have in your guild. But! Here's the caveat, if you have never set the expectation that everyone pull 100% of their weight and enforced it, don't expect this to be easy or for people to understand.

    Personally this kind of issue isn't even about raiding to me, it's about respect for the other people you play with who are putting out 110% to get it done, while you stand there and watch them work.
    Last edited by kolben; 01-09-2009 at 04:39 PM.

  7. #27
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    Our ever so small guild over the last couple of months expanded hugelly and all officers decided to bring on some diciplinary to make sure the good atmosphere in the guild and the feel that things are under control - instead of beeing just a bunch of people in same chat and same name above the heads.

    Our guild just recently started every-week raiding, and as first tank to initate raids, I became a raid leader eventually. Our guild-founder, GM, and a few officers are not raid prepared, so they cannot know or judge our members' performance and rely on my reports only.
    I also realised the need of setting some more rules. Even if we believe that raiding has to bring more fun, than routine boredom, rules do make the game more enjoyable.
    Many of our members do not have lots of experience (like myself) in raiding or at all, so I assume nothing and keep them posted to make sure they are ready for next encounter - just doing what I think I'm supposed to do: writing up rules on attendancy/raid preparation/in fight performace expectations... and bang on everyone to read all that.
    So if I notice something I think would improve our raiding experience for all of us, discuss with other officers and we ammend our policy/initiate dicipline to make sure people try to act up if they actually want to secure a place in raid.

    Communication is key aswell - if you do not address the issues to them, they will not be aware. And if you did, but nothing changed - it depends on the social side: demoting (means just no raiding for them) or if they start badmouthing and creating 'sad' atmosphere i don't think they diserve to stay in the guild. Bad attitude is a killer, in my opinion, no matter what you do.

    I do not think, that seting rules and use of disciplinaries on underperformers is taking everything too seriously (as someone said it was) as all we want is to make it fair for those who want to enjoy the game to the fullest, they care and try hard for it.

    (note: sorry, lots of words, nothing new I guess, just another opinion)

    Milly
    .......Millet
    <Remorseless>

  8. #28
    I think one of the most important things is to not let the issue go unaddressed. The easy route is to not invite them to raids and hope they gquit eventually. Sometimes you just need to confront someone to cause them to shape up, and it's always better to have someone shape up than to replace them if you can manage, they'll respect you more as a leader if you can help mold them (though it's way nicer to not have to do it from the start, I'm just talking about once you have them).

    Let the person know: You weren't invited because your (DPS|gear|attitude) is below average and we want to have the highest chance of success. If you want to come with us, fix the issue, which we're willing to help with when we're not raiding, and we'll be glad to have you. But as it stands, that's how things are. G'day mate.

    Or ya know, whatever. You basically want to tell them hey, you suck, but it's okay, we'll help, we want you to be better, but right now you can't come, it's fixable... by you, go... show some initiative, like the other 9/24 people have.

  9. #29
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    You are going to have to make some decisions about what type of people you are dealing with.

    Is it an attitude problem? Kick them to the door.

    Is it an aptitude problem? Reach out to other members of their class to help them.

    I would recomment WWS stats or something similar. Get the numbers out there. If they think others are out there looking at them and wondering WTF, they may improve on their own.

    If they are trying and just sucking, I would recommend not calling them out publicly. Do it privately. Be patient. Run some numbers so they understand how much 200 DPS means in a 3 minute boss fight, etc. Help them understand how much a little improvement on their part improves the perfromance of a group. If they truly want to get better, they will... with a little help.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eunuch View Post
    Do some research and spoon feed them the specs, and rotations they should use, offer some good places to get the mats/gold together to use raid consumables, if they are on offer to them explicitly to go to heroics with them, or fill a group out without them and ask if they can jump in.

    Some people just need a chance, if you do those things and they don't change then yeah boot.
    we recently did this with someone and they still could barely beat the tanks and healers with full (25man) raid buffs. some people just dont quite have what it takes no matter how much you give them... it is unfortunate

  11. #31
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    I have a simple rule. If you don't perform, I'll kick you. Your attitude needs to match your goals.

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
    Agg's tanking guide

  12. #32
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    If someone is doing something wrong, call them out on it. Don't just ignore it and shake your head. Everyone should be reading up on their class so they know the best way to maximize everything, but some people don't know about good places to look (or it just never occurred to them that places like that exist).

    Give them some pointers and point them towards a relevant website to get more information/proof. If they still refuse to up their game remove them from raids (but not before you have someone to replace them.)

  13. #33
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    It's the aftermath of them not getting to go that is sickening to me. It's been explained over and over what we expect.
    Write it into the guild rules, that harassing officers over invites is not allowed. This issue will cause officer stress and burnout, and negatively effect everyone else, in the end.

    Just remember, it gets harder the longer you wait. The longer they are there, the more likely this turns into 5000 other issues. They'll drag other players into their "cause", and you'll end up with even bigger headaches. It's not always easy to be tough, but it is fair to enforce the same requirements on everyone.

  14. #34
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    I think the guy from Starship Troopers said it best:

    Alright listen up! This is for all you new people. I only have one rule. Everyone Fights no one quits, if you don't do your job I'll kill you myself.

    Nah but on a serious note. You need to pull this (as you put it) group of disrespectful people into a vent channel and throw down 2 options.

    One: You leave the guild under your own power.
    Two: I remove you from the guild.

    After all the issues you have described it all comes down to one simple thing. Its clear these people are not going to change. Once you have accepted that, the easier pulling them into that vent channel will be. And if for some reason I miss read this and your not an officer, you should be recommending this action to the officers.
    Last edited by Bodasafa; 01-28-2009 at 09:57 PM.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  15. #35
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    okay, I admit I only have read the OP and a few below that.

    I don't like bringing people like that to a raid, I kindly point out to the RL if we have such a person. I don't care what they think is enough or "just want to have fun" they are still wasting other 9/24 peoples time and gold that actually try to be on top of the game. I raid for the fun, and it's not fun doing the work for other people that might even nick your purples.

  16. #36
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    current content is SOOO EASY if you have ppl that cant perform right now currently, i would say simply sit them.... no point in kicking them since it might piss off current members that are friends with them. if they dont like not raiding im sure they will leave eventually. (flasking and food for naxx is stupid waste of time)

  17. #37
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    They still doesn't mean they shouldn't know their class, rotation and spec - let alone prepare for the fights by at least knowing what the different phases and abilities do. If they don't improve now, they probably never will and why the heck would you carry them around then? This is also the kind of people that leave the 10th time you wipe on a progression boss "because there is no point".

    If the "friends" are leaving as well, it's not the guilds loss, but their own tbh - you're better off without people that can't be at least a little objective.

  18. #38
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    Your guild description & nature of slackers fit our situation a lot. We consider ourselves a casual guild, raiding for 3 hours, 3 days a week. We go with whoever is online at raidtime even though we have a signup system.

    The casual part is something we dont want to drop. The guild is a friendly guild, praised for its atmosphere. Some of our best raiders dont really want to commit the amount of time for all those raiding hours. So dropping "casual" isnt an option.

    But what we do enforce is: "Casualness stops at the raid portal". Inside, for those 3 hours, you're hardcore.

    What we found that works is:

    a) Keep a good pace of progression. If being casual ends you up on lower content, you're pretty much screwed
    b) Keep recruiting.

    There's nothing like a new recruit getting to raid & get loot to put those slackers on afterburner. Sure they yell & drama. You just say "perform or you dont get to go".

    Those who're looking for a free ride will usually leave themselves after a while, in search of others to leech on. Those who like you because of the atmosphere will either accept the fact they cant raid or start working real hard.

    As for not performing, it really could be due to them not knowing how to play. You'll need to put forward some mentoring system. Our current maintank joined us as a totally crap fury warrior. I took him in because i saw some promise - he was willing to put in the effort. Now he's maintanking while i'm enjoying the slack (Yes he's a much better fury too when he respecs) Currently we have a really poorly performing warlock. Difference is he himself came out saying he applied everything he knew & still couldnt do more and openly asked for advice. Our resident warlock is getting him up to speed now.

    Also, recruit the player not the gear. We have a recently joined mage in recent 80 blues & performed horribly. 2 weeks later, he's competing in the top 5.

  19. #39
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    We had an officer meeting today actually about that same subject. Last weeks Naxx attempt was horrible because so many people were undergeared and expected for us to carry them. If they don't want to take the time and effort to gear themselves for Naxx, they simply won't get in until they do. As the MT it's irritating to have to tank heroics for people that simply don't care about the guild and want to be pulled through everything.

  20. #40
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    how we do it

    We check out our players and if they aren't geared well enough and don't have the dps they don't get to run the 25 mans. They are told to run more heroics and they may get in on the 10 mans. Some of our 80's don't raid at all which is up to them. If you sign up though and are allowed in the 25 mans we expect you to be there, ready to go, etc. We consider ourselves casual though cause we do like to have fun and aren't as military in our ways as some. We don't calls wipes as easy as some guilds either. On 25 man Naxx doing Heigen everyone died but 5 people and we let them finish. They thought they could and they did it. Took them 34 minutes to beat him but they did. Who were we to take that victory away from the 5 people left.

    Anyway, we don't just kick from the guild for not being geared, we just don't let them raid in some of the raids.

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