40 SBV vs 20 Def

[Vomandor]

I was wondering what you guys think of the new 40 SBV blacksmith enchant versus the 20 def enchant. In the gear ratings it seems avoidance is valued much more highly than shield block value. Assuming you do meet the minimum defense 540 without the 20 defense enchant to the shield, which is better from an effective health point of view?
Thanks,
Vomandor

[Ceravantes]

Rankings are based off of Tankpoints, that list is a good guide, but it does not mean best in slot or anything of that nature. You gear towards your own strengths and weaknesses, as well as per encounter.

It is also a good idea to gem/enchant gear towards its own strengths.

[Omok]

Use the 20 defense if you're not capped. If you can stand to lose the 20 defense, then go with the shield block value for some mitigation and more threat. I'm to the point now where I only have defense on my helm, shoulders, and shield. Also I have defense/stamina in my yellow sockets, sitting at 540 right now.

[Angry Grimace]

If you're beyond 2 or 3 epics and not using the daunting or tempered parts, you're gonna have to stack a bit of Defense somewhere. Shield is a great place to do so.

[Lightmgl]

I've commented before that defense on shield should be the absolute last defense enchant/gem to be replaced on a warrior. Theres no new stamina alternative yet and 40 SBV is such a pathetic amount of threat and mitigation that its a waste of an enchant.

They really need to stop with the SBV altogether in fact. Now that we gain it from strength there is really no reason for the stat to exist at all. If it was an 80 str to shield enchant it would be much more interesting.

[mabijaoude]

I am by no means saying that the 20 def rating is bad, I have it on my shield as of now to keep my def cap up. But if you have the option to switch it out for 40 SBV you are probably at the point where you are going to be seeing some diminishing returns.

And yes 80 str would be better but that is too powerful for a shield enchant.

20 def rating = 4.065 defence => 0.163% for dodge/parry/miss

This translates to 0.488% total avoidance (BEFORE DR). depending on your dodge / parry levels this stat might be quite alot lower.

40 SBV (for warriors) = 52 SBV (multiple by 1.3) with shield block up and chance for crit blocks at 30% you are looking at in 10 secs out of 40 secs an average of 135.2 damage mitigated after armor. Assume the mobs swing timer is 2 secs, 676 damage mitigated in 10 secs the remaining 30 secs will also yeild some damage reduction.

Obviously there is a point where if the mob is a very hard hitting mob, 20 def rating might be better. Lets ignore Dimishing returns for now. say you have 0.488% avoidance but lets be more opitmistic and say 0.5% to make the math a bit easier on me. out of 200 swings you will avoid 1 more attack. now 200 swings using this example @ 2 secs each gives 400 secs as our comparision window. which is 10 Shield blocks (40 sec timer). lets also ignore the blocks in the 30 secs when shield block is not up to be even more opitmistic.

676 (damage mitigated) x 10 (shield blocks) = 6760 .

because of the rounds this number should be a bit higher (but I don't know about individual shield block rating etc).

So if the mob in the 2 secs hits for more then 6760, 20 DEF rating enchant is better. if in 2 secs the mob hits for Less then 6760 the SBV enchant is better.

This is also ignoring the Damage output of your shield slams from 40 SBV.

Also the argument for SBV increases as the swing timer increases also. Faster hitting mob(s) SBV is king.

So I say there is a time and place for each of these enchants and it might not be the last enchant to be replaced.

lastly I agree that getting SBV out of str would be nice but it would also be overpowering to have 80 str as a shield enchant. Maybe if they did a 50 str enchant instead of 40 SBV, but I personally think as progression increases not even too far 40 SBV would be the way to go (but be at least at 540 cap)



Gajanator --- Zuluhed

[swelt]

If there were a strength on shield enchant, it would probably be ~20 not 80. SBV is like AP, because it's a focussed secondary stat rather than a prime stat, it's cheaper on item budget. So while I'd buy an 80 str shield enchant, we aren't going to get one :P

I just got wall of the dead and have been musing on what to enchant it with. I slapped Tough Shield on there for the moment while I think. Mulling around in my mind are thoughts like:
- there is synergy between SBV enchant and the shield block ability, critical block talent
- SBV isn't subject to DR
- the biggest hits aren't mitigated a lot by SBV, but might be avoided by a little extra defense
- dying isn't a big problem right now and SBV is the best threat option for a shield

[Lightmgl]

I am by no means saying that the 20 def rating is bad, I have it on my shield as of now to keep my def cap up. But if you have the option to switch it out for 40 SBV you are probably at the point where you are going to be seeing some diminishing returns.

And yes 80 str would be better but that is too powerful for a shield enchant.

20 def rating = 4.065 defence => 0.163% for dodge/parry/miss

This translates to 0.488% total avoidance (BEFORE DR). depending on your dodge / parry levels this stat might be quite alot lower.

40 SBV (for warriors) = 52 SBV (multiple by 1.3) with shield block up and chance for crit blocks at 30% you are looking at in 10 secs out of 40 secs an average of 135.2 damage mitigated after armor. Assume the mobs swing timer is 2 secs, 676 damage mitigated in 10 secs the remaining 30 secs will also yeild some damage reduction.

Obviously there is a point where if the mob is a very hard hitting mob, 20 def rating might be better. Lets ignore Dimishing returns for now. say you have 0.488% avoidance but lets be more opitmistic and say 0.5% to make the math a bit easier on me. out of 200 swings you will avoid 1 more attack. now 200 swings using this example @ 2 secs each gives 400 secs as our comparision window. which is 10 Shield blocks (40 sec timer). lets also ignore the blocks in the 30 secs when shield block is not up to be even more opitmistic.

676 (damage mitigated) x 10 (shield blocks) = 6760 .

because of the rounds this number should be a bit higher (but I don't know about individual shield block rating etc).

So if the mob in the 2 secs hits for more then 6760, 20 DEF rating enchant is better. if in 2 secs the mob hits for Less then 6760 the SBV enchant is better.

This is also ignoring the Damage output of your shield slams from 40 SBV.

Also the argument for SBV increases as the swing timer increases also. Faster hitting mob(s) SBV is king.

So I say there is a time and place for each of these enchants and it might not be the last enchant to be replaced.

lastly I agree that getting SBV out of str would be nice but it would also be overpowering to have 80 str as a shield enchant. Maybe if they did a 50 str enchant instead of 40 SBV, but I personally think as progression increases not even too far 40 SBV would be the way to go (but be at least at 540 cap)



Gajanator --- Zuluhed

Ahhh but what if that +20 defense rating on shield enchant lets you put on a ring or cloak with 400 armor that you could not otherwise wear. That is the situation I'm most likely looking at in my endgame gear. The +20 defense rating on shield lets me put on a 400 armor cloak while remaining above cap. Thats a gain of 300 armor vs 40 SBV which is an easy choice.

Bracer is 12 defense vs 40 stam next patch. Cloak is 16 defense vs 225 armor. Chest is 22 defense vs 275 health. Shield is 20 defense vs 18 stamina vs 40 sbv. Shield just has awful alternatives compared to the other slots.

Also the only mobs that I would even care about mitigation on hit for way more than 6700. Its an awful enchant and it once again shows that Blizzard gives way too much weight to shield block value which is an awful non scaling stat that is trumped by every other form of mitigation in the game. It is only useful vs low damage creatures which is a tiny portion of your wow life.

[Trixie]

I would never compare the SBV enchant to the +def enchant for mitigation or survivability.

I would, however, compare the SBV enchant against the Titanium Steel Spike for doing more damage. The SBV enchant benefits Shield Slam and Damage Shield while the shield spike is just passive "thorns" threat/damage.

For progression encounters that didn't involve AOE tanking I'd get +def on my "main" shield. But I typically have a back-up shield from a lower tier where I would put on a shield spike.

Right now, will probably keep +20 def on Wall of Terror and stick 40 SBV on Barricade of Eternity.

[Whitetooth]

I am by no means saying that the 20 def rating is bad, I have it on my shield as of now to keep my def cap up. But if you have the option to switch it out for 40 SBV you are probably at the point where you are going to be seeing some diminishing returns.

And yes 80 str would be better but that is too powerful for a shield enchant.

20 def rating = 4.065 defence => 0.163% for dodge/parry/miss

This translates to 0.488% total avoidance (BEFORE DR). depending on your dodge / parry levels this stat might be quite alot lower.

40 SBV (for warriors) = 52 SBV (multiple by 1.3) with shield block up and chance for crit blocks at 30% you are looking at in 10 secs out of 40 secs an average of 135.2 damage mitigated after armor. Assume the mobs swing timer is 2 secs, 676 damage mitigated in 10 secs the remaining 30 secs will also yeild some damage reduction.

Obviously there is a point where if the mob is a very hard hitting mob, 20 def rating might be better. Lets ignore Dimishing returns for now. say you have 0.488% avoidance but lets be more opitmistic and say 0.5% to make the math a bit easier on me. out of 200 swings you will avoid 1 more attack. now 200 swings using this example @ 2 secs each gives 400 secs as our comparision window. which is 10 Shield blocks (40 sec timer). lets also ignore the blocks in the 30 secs when shield block is not up to be even more opitmistic.

676 (damage mitigated) x 10 (shield blocks) = 6760 .

because of the rounds this number should be a bit higher (but I don't know about individual shield block rating etc).

So if the mob in the 2 secs hits for more then 6760, 20 DEF rating enchant is better. if in 2 secs the mob hits for Less then 6760 the SBV enchant is better.

This is also ignoring the Damage output of your shield slams from 40 SBV.

Also the argument for SBV increases as the swing timer increases also. Faster hitting mob(s) SBV is king.

So I say there is a time and place for each of these enchants and it might not be the last enchant to be replaced.

lastly I agree that getting SBV out of str would be nice but it would also be overpowering to have 80 str as a shield enchant. Maybe if they did a 50 str enchant instead of 40 SBV, but I personally think as progression increases not even too far 40 SBV would be the way to go (but be at least at 540 cap)

Gajanator --- Zuluhed

What you are trying to do here is what TankPoints already does for you, but with a more precise model.

When you have shield block up(uptime is 25%), your actual block% is not 100%, but 100%-(miss%+dodge%+parry%). 75% of the time you use your real block%.

With Shield Mastery(2/2) and Critical Block(3/3), the average block per hit is 40*1.3*1.3=67.6

And for defense, TankPoints also calculates DR.

Contrary to popular belief, mob swing time is not required for this calculation, only mob damage matters. If you have TankPoints installed, use the "/tp mob damage" command to set your preferred mob damage used for calculations and see how it changes your stat values.