Death Knight Raid DPS Compendium (FR/BL/UH)

[Krenian]

I'm currently leveling my death knight (almost lvl 68), and I'm leveling with a dual wielding spec.
I am, however, looking for a new spec, and I was going to take your Tri-build untill I realized that some things have changed on the new patch and that maybe it isn't a build for leveling, but for raiding.
So what I ask for is a Build for dual weilding for leveling (and possibly for raiding later as well), that will obviously make the most benefit of dual wielding and of the pet ghoul. If you help me with a build please state wether it fits for dual wielding a slow and a fast weapon or 2 fast weapons, and which rune enchants to use (you can include Rune of the Fallen Crusader in that, I will be 70 soon enough).
Thank you very much.

Bladen

The Dual wielding build I use is definitely more for a raiding scenario and I wouldn't suggest it any other way really because while leveling you're attempting to have the most minimum amount of damage done to you.

To be honest, if I ever dual wielded, I'd stick with a pretty solid grinding blood build. But make sure to have a slow main hander so you can death strike as hard as you can. That's the problem with dual wielding builds that I saw while leveling: although you kill some stuff pretty fast, unfortunately you really don't hit hard with your skills that keep you alive which makes your grinding slower in my opinion.

Let me see if I can't fiddle something up that i was toying with when I was playing Blood for that one level with two weapons..

At the top of my head going through the builds, this is what I came up with a 68 build:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=000000000000

Note: between Howling Blast and Death Strike, I prefer Howling Blast for damage however for sustainability, I'd choose Death Strike. You just live longer with Death Strike and it gives you far less downtime. Now with the Aura + Bloodworms, I'm not sure if that's still the case. As I said, I leveled with a two hander as unholy most of the time and only one level of blood due to my curiosity getting the best of me. But this would help with dual wielding.

The honest fundamental flaw here is that you're not really focusing on the skills you're supposed to focus on when dual wielding. If you really wanna start working a dual wielding build..try the 32/39 build as a leveling build. I can't gaurentee it's sucess or failure, but it could potentially give you the damage. You'd pretty much play the class as a DPS warrior or a Rogue.

Honestly, I never got the point of dual wielding while leveling. Your skills just don't favor dual wielding when you're grinding. In blood, it's all about how much health you get and you get more health with a two hander. In frost, it's how hard you hit to down the guys, kinda like an arms spec warrior however you'll have a bit more downtime. With unholy, it's how many guys you pull to you in one shot to down which is key, and a two hander keeps you alive due to death strike's mechanic. I can't see how dual wielding could ever be better for leveling purposes.

[Bladen]

Thanks for your quick reply.
Let me just say that although it may be unusual to level with dual wielding, it yeilds great results due to the fact that my enemies die in 5-6 seconds and I don't lose any health. In fact, I lost so little health that I never use death strike, only on special occasions. I did try having a 2 Hander for a while, and even though the weapon itself was much better than my one handed weapons, it still took me a longer time to kill mobs with the 2 hander (and I found it a bit boring compared to dual wielding).
I usually prefer to focus on damage and not on getting hit for the minimum damage due to the fact that when a mob dies quickly, he has less time to do damage to me, and increasing my damage enables me to kill mobs quickly and efficiently.
I might try the build u gave me, and I will keep fiddling with builds myself, and I'll come back to the builds u gave in your guide when I'm lvl 80 and I am able to do heroics and raid.
Thanks anyway for your help and thanks for writing this great guide.

Bladen

[Krenian]

After testing with a full tier 7.5 DK, I decided to test out Blood again.

And I'm not impressed, even with the changes.

Kelthuzad is usually a fight I can score decent. Usually around 4k.

Well, with my Inevitable Defeat, I decided to take my shot at a 51/13/7 build and try it out. Well..

3.1k dps is not impressive at all. I'm not convinced they boosted the dps enough for the spec to be honest. With Dual Wield, they are scoring at least nearly 4k on that fight, and this makes me think of a few things.

1) They may need to buff Blood some more. Our main attack, Heart Strike, is lagging behind the other two main attacks: Frost Strike and Scourge Strike. Where I'm seeing 4k Heart Strikes, I'm seeing nearly 8k Frost Strikes for the same amount of hits and Scourge Strikes for the same amount again. Granted, Heart Strike can be used twice, it just doesn't seem it has enough damage. A boost to Heart Strike may be in order to compete a bit more. The cleave is nice for AoE stuff but it doesn't help enough.

2) The biggest thing I see about the 32/39 build or any dual wield build right now is the ghoul. Face it folks, that ghoul adds a good 400 dps more constantly. More if it gets the right buffs, less if it dies halfway through a fight. With the strengths the ghouls have been given in the Unholy tree when it has to do with Survival, the ghoul is a pretty much permanent pet. Unfortunately, this might be a lil too much of an issue.

See, Blizzard never meant the ghoul to be like a hunter pet. Granted, it needed survivability, however that ghoul alone is giving a lot of power to anyone who wants it. You practically have to get the ghoul permanent to get one of the bigger dps increases for a DK. This poses a problem: a skill once more is becoming near essential for DPSing which is what Blizzard does not what.

Blizzard, the way they do things, is to nerf skills instead of hiking it up. It's always like that, oddly enough. A fair warning to all: I would not be surprised if the damage a ghoul does go down in a patch. Fair warning and you heard it here first.

Either that or they might be smart and help Blood out again. I'm also speculating due to one fight being able to do. I still have to go and do Patchwerk and see how that goes however I don't foresee any change to this: Dual Wield is still the way to go and the Two hander specs (Bar Unholy) are not standing up to the challenge. I'll be testing Frost next with the gear. But without the ghoul, I'm foreseeing the same situation. However I'm expecting a potential DPS boost from Blood most likely.

[Bladen]

Thank you for testing this build and giving me the results.
I am now using ur 32/39 build (maybe with few minor adjustments) for leveling (although i started with frost so atm its like a 32/29 build) and it seems to work extremely well. Howling blast is putting out 2k crits when I'm grinding alone and 2800 crits in groups (I'm just lvl 70 remember).
The ghoul like you said is doing a good job and I hope it won't be nerfed in the next patch, although blood does need some buffing.
I think I might later try a frost build that goes pretty much only deep enough for the ghoul in unholy, but we will see about that.
Anyway, thanks again for your help and I will keep checking the website for your updates about what your testing.

Bladen

[Gorgrim Warcry]

I haven't tried out blood in a month but those numbers seem low. Inevitable defeat isn't the greatest weapon either /sigh and im still using it... Im pretty sure I was hitting 3k in half blues maybe you just had some bad rolls.

How or why are you comparing heart strike and frost strike. One is a rune ability and one is a Rune Dump. If your making a comparison shouldn't it be between Heart Strike and Blood Strike or Frost Strike and Death Coil? BTW with Tundra Stalker you will see 10k frost strikes

I know what you mean about the ghoul, to have any top dps spec you must have it. It is what makes unholy so competitive. I am currently running a 44/27 2 hand spec hitting 4k dps on bosses. God knows I would love to drop the ghoul and get tundra stalker for those huge crits but I lose nearly 200 dps to do it. It kinda makes me sick.

I think they will more than likely make ghoul a pet for all specs before they nerf it, and provide more talents in the uholy tree to make it better. After what was done to Garg I can't see them nerfing another pet into uselessness.
Another possibility is that they might move it farther down in the tree.

Honestly I think the specs will balance out once people have the gear. Unholy doesn't see the gains from gear more so weapon damage that a blood and frost spec would, most of unholys damage is magic based and as we have seen in the past melee always out pace casters once the proper gear is provided. I believe if you had Betrayer right now you would be singing a different tune. If they do indeed buff haste, and Arp I think you will see blood become the dominate spec.

What Blizzard needs to do is find a way to prevent every spec other than unholy from having to invest enough points in unholy to get the ghoul. Maybe blood needs a bit more love but I believe it will soon get that thru buffs in other areas such as haste and arp changes.

[Bladen]

Can anyone explain frost strike to me please? I read it's tooltip and I simply can't understand why it can do 8k or 10k crits even though u have good gear and fully raid buffed. Are you getting 8k crits with a 2 hander or with dual wielding? Because really, it's just 60% weapon damage plus a 150 as frost damage, I can't see how it does more damage than howling blast. I would love an explanation.

Bladen

[xKhellendrosx]

How or why are you comparing heart strike and frost strike. One is a rune ability and one is a Rune Dump. If your making a comparison shouldn't it be between Heart Strike and Blood Strike or Frost Strike and Death Coil? BTW with Tundra Stalker you will see 10k frost strikes

Because Frost Strike like Scourge and Heart are the 41 point talent Strikes I'm guessing. It is sort of strange that Frost strike is based off of RP but I would guess its that way because Frost already has access to Howling Blast and Obliterate making a 3rd UF ability hard to work into a rotation.

[Krenian]

I haven't tried out blood in a month but those numbers seem low. Inevitable defeat isn't the greatest weapon either /sigh and im still using it... Im pretty sure I was hitting 3k in half blues maybe you just had some bad rolls.

That'd be entirely possible honestly. ID really isn't the greatest weapon, I agree, but it beats Titansteel Destroyer and any of the ten man weapons save Death's Bite. I have to go with what I have and it's got a solid top end damage, which is essential to blood anyway. But yeah, I could of gotten some bad rolls however I was just watching the damage to be honest and it wasn't impressive. 4.5k Heart Strike crits with 8k Obliterates..

How or why are you comparing heart strike and frost strike. One is a rune ability and one is a Rune Dump. If your making a comparison shouldn't it be between Heart Strike and Blood Strike or Frost Strike and Death Coil? BTW with Tundra Stalker you will see 10k frost strikes

The reason I compare is that it's our 40 point marking talent. I don't mean to compare it with damage, and maybe it was faulty for me to do, however I'm trying to show that the damage it causes is lacking compared to the two other abilities that replace our primary ability. (Ie Frost Strike for Death Coil and Scourge Strike for Obliterate.). Heart Strike is a great replacement for Blood Strike but it just doesn't seem to be doing enough damage right now, in my opinion, especially with the gear selection I have.

I know what you mean about the ghoul, to have any top dps spec you must have it. It is what makes unholy so competitive. I am currently running a 44/27 2 hand spec hitting 4k dps on bosses. God knows I would love to drop the ghoul and get tundra stalker for those huge crits but I lose nearly 200 dps to do it. It kinda makes me sick.

That's the problem. More and more you are seeing the variations of x/x/27 at least in unholy just for the ghoul. The ghoul alone is giving too much sustained DPS and it was under my assumption that Blizzard was avoiding low level tier skills to be a) needed and b) powerful to negate other specs. At this time, it's almost pointless to do otherwise in PVE because of it's use and power. That can't stay the way it is and it probably won't.

I think they will more than likely make ghoul a pet for all specs before they nerf it, and provide more talents in the uholy tree to make it better. After what was done to Garg I can't see them nerfing another pet into uselessness.
Another possibility is that they might move it farther down in the tree.

I'd support them moving the ghoul further down the tree however even then, that ghoul will still make a powerful tool where you'd have to decide if you are ready to lose 200+ DPS. That would cement Unholy as being the raid build. Your other option would be nice but I dislike it becuase it makes us feel like hunters and I dislike that class personally and it would throw a bad taste into my mouth. I still foresee a nerf to his damage or at least the coeffcient. An 1.8k strength pet is ludicrous and i"m not even sure a Hunter with his pet can get that high.

Honestly I think the specs will balance out once people have the gear. Unholy doesn't see the gains from gear more so weapon damage that a blood and frost spec would, most of unholys damage is magic based and as we have seen in the past melee always out pace casters once the proper gear is provided. I believe if you had Betrayer right now you would be singing a different tune. If they do indeed buff haste, and Arp I think you will see blood become the dominate spec.

If they buff haste and ArP like they said they would, you're probably right, we'll see a nice jump in the Blood DPS. I'm just saying right now, even with a decent weapon, Blood doesn't match up. I probably would sing a different tune with a Betrayer. However your point with Unholy is skewed for the following reason: Our spells go up as our AP goes up. The more AP we'll get, the more those spells will hit. This is how it'll stay competitive with the rest. I don't think Unholy will lag behind honestly but the future will let us know.

What Blizzard needs to do is find a way to prevent every spec other than unholy from having to invest enough points in unholy to get the ghoul. Maybe blood needs a bit more love but I believe it will soon get that thru buffs in other areas such as haste and arp changes.

Let's hope so! Right now Blood's still not keeping up. I'm actually kinda excited to try the 44/27 Frost build next week.

[Krenian]

Can anyone explain frost strike to me please? I read it's tooltip and I simply can't understand why it can do 8k or 10k crits even though u have good gear and fully raid buffed. Are you getting 8k crits with a 2 hander or with dual wielding? Because really, it's just 60% weapon damage plus a 150 as frost damage, I can't see how it does more damage than howling blast. I would love an explanation.

Bladen

Frost Strike's pretty simple..It's a Runic Power dump that replaces Death Coil in your rotation. It also goes through armor because it's an elemental attack, and is buffed by a lot of the talents (Tundra Stalker included) which can make it hit hard. A lot of the talents in Frost boost it's attack up just as much as they boost Howling Blast (Hell, I think all of the ones that boost the damage and crit damage of HB boost Frost Strike as well!) which makes it plausible for them to hit 10k. I was hitting 8-9k HBs without Tundra Stalker and Tundra really OPs the skills. FS doesn't replace HB, it goes with HB to cause the damage it does.

[Kordana]

Hey there. Long time reader. First time poster.

I'm 0/32/39 right now equipped in mostly heroic/10man epics using Torment of the Banish and Grasscutter as my weapons. According to your guide, since I have a slower main hand, I should be using GoG spec instead right? Will that honestly give me a DPS increase? It just seems like I wouldn't be gaining as much as I would if I stayed 0/32/39.

Now that I think about it, a better question would be, could I stay 0/32/39 without sacrificing a large chunk of potential DPS?

Oh and one more question, last one I promise. For melee abilities while dual wielding... Still 8.02% hit cap? Or does it jump to the awesome 27%?

[Krenian]

Hey there. Long time reader. First time poster.

I'm 0/32/39 right now equipped in mostly heroic/10man epics using Torment of the Banish and Grasscutter as my weapons. According to your guide, since I have a slower main hand, I should be using GoG spec instead right? Will that honestly give me a DPS increase? It just seems like I wouldn't be gaining as much as I would if I stayed 0/32/39.

Now that I think about it, a better question would be, could I stay 0/32/39 without sacrificing a large chunk of potential DPS?

Oh and one more question, last one I promise. For melee abilities while dual wielding... Still 8.02% hit cap? Or does it jump to the awesome 27%?

At this point, either spec will work fine. The reason why you went Slow/Fast as 44/27 is because of the slow MH. However with the change to Killing Machine, Slow/Fast works best for 32/39 now. You can stay with both and be just fine and it's a preference thing. Right now, it seems 44/27 looks to be a solid two hander build instead of dual wielding and tests will need to do that.

So yes, you can stay as 32/39 and have no problems anymore. If it was pre-3.0.8 ...

[Gorgrim Warcry]

Hey there. Long time reader. First time poster.

I'm 0/32/39 right now equipped in mostly heroic/10man epics using Torment of the Banish and Grasscutter as my weapons. According to your guide, since I have a slower main hand, I should be using GoG spec instead right? Will that honestly give me a DPS increase? It just seems like I wouldn't be gaining as much as I would if I stayed 0/32/39.

Now that I think about it, a better question would be, could I stay 0/32/39 without sacrificing a large chunk of potential DPS?

Oh and one more question, last one I promise. For melee abilities while dual wielding... Still 8.02% hit cap? Or does it jump to the awesome 27%?

32/39 is all but a dead spec at this point, 44/27 in my opinion requires the best gear to make it work. There seems to be a movement to a 0/20/51 spec with IT spam for dual weild that is putting up good numbers.

44/27 is still a good spec, there are post patch reports of 6k dps on some parses but those are the exceptions most are dropping the 32/39 spec however it just doesn't seem capable of those numbers any more.

[Kordana]

32/39 is all but a dead spec at this point, 44/27 in my opinion requires the best gear to make it work. There seems to be a movement to a 0/20/51 spec with IT spam for dual weild that is putting up good numbers.

44/27 is still a good spec, there are post patch reports of 6k dps on some parses but those are the exceptions most are dropping the 32/39 spec however it just doesn't seem capable of those numbers any more.

Can you link me a 0/20/51 spec and what kind of a rotation are we looking at with that kind of build?

[Gorgrim Warcry]

I really dont have the information on it as I havent tried it out yet. You can go over to Plaguechill - Let's get together and spread some diseases though and ask for yourself. I think I have made the decision to stick with 2 handers unless they denerf what they did in the patch at least in part. Also we have a unholy DK and I would rather contribute somethign extra to the raid rather than the same thing another member of the raid does.

[Kelython]

Hey Tony. I joined a serious raid guild today and i will be expected to pump out the most dps possible. I have several questions.

- Patch 3.0.8.... Basterdly patch imho. I feel im doing less damage now adays. What spec atm would be best suited for raiding? I am currently Blood/Annhilation (51/13/7).
-Secondly, which presence should i use for "x" spec ("X" Spec being the best spec atm for raiding) And what i should be using with my annhilation. I'm currently using blood pres.
-Do we legit need DW now for KM/HB specs? Or will two handers have a decent proc now? I need to know so i can inform my guild if i need to get Hailstorm and possibly another / Naxxramas 1 hander.

If you have anything to add to maximizing my dps it'd be greatly appreciated.
The World of Warcraft Armory is my character page. Any improvements to my gear that could help me would be wonderfully helpful.

Thanks again Tony,
Kelython <Unbound> | US:Norgannon

[Krenian]

Hey Tony. I joined a serious raid guild today and i will be expected to pump out the most dps possible. I have several questions.

- Patch 3.0.8.... Basterdly patch imho. I feel im doing less damage now adays. What spec atm would be best suited for raiding? I am currently Blood/Annhilation (51/13/7).
-Secondly, which presence should i use for "x" spec ("X" Spec being the best spec atm for raiding) And what i should be using with my annhilation. I'm currently using blood pres.
-Do we legit need DW now for KM/HB specs? Or will two handers have a decent proc now? I need to know so i can inform my guild if i need to get Hailstorm and possibly another / Naxxramas 1 hander.

If you have anything to add to maximizing my dps it'd be greatly appreciated.
The World of Warcraft Armory is my character page. Any improvements to my gear that could help me would be wonderfully helpful.

Thanks again Tony,
Kelython <Unbound> | US:Norgannon

Hello Kelython:

1) Could potentially be. Blood requires a good two hander to do anything decent so if your two hander is on the blue, early epics, you're going to see some hard numbers. Even with my gear, I'm not too sure Blood is very well off and I personally think it needs more of a buff. The problem is that our Tier set doesn't work very well with blood (And go figure it works perfect with frost and unholy) and this puts it at a disadvantage. Add the fact that the Sigil in 25 man Naxx is again only for Frost/Unholy advantage, it really sours Blood's competition. Your gear looks solid enough that you could probably pull off a 32/39 spec just fine. Unlike what Grim says, it's not a dead spec and i can pull off some pretty frigthening numbers with a dual wield set. If you're deadset in using two handers, go with a solid 17/0/54 Unholy build or the newly liked 27/44/0 Frost build that people have been touting. You could techincally go with a 21/50/0 build and get Tundra Stalker for the extra damage, it really depends on if you're hurting for Expertise. However, it is my belief that a Frost spec focus tree doesn't need too much expertise (Most attacks cannot be dodged or parried, I.E. HB and FS) however Obliterate, your main attack, will. It'll depend on what you want: If you're expertise capped (6.5%), go with the 21/50 build. If you're not, 27/44 will serve you well.

2) No matter what, you're staying in Blood in any serious raid. Unholy screws with your timers far too much and doesn't allow you to follow a serious rotation. Also, 15% extra damage is too good to pass up for 15% haste, which doesn't do enough for us. Most of our damage comes from yellow damage which does not benefit from haste at all. Haste also doesn't affect the rune cooldown (Would be nice and give haste a nice stat increase in priority if it did.), which makes it even a worse stat. Follow this guideline:

PvE: Blood
PvP: Unholy
Tanking: Frost

You won't go real wrong with it.

3) At this time, the changes done to KM has really helped a Frost built two handed DK. They're getting a lot more power which is showing up in the fashion of the now ever increasing popular 27/44 or 21/50 depending on expertise. If you're going to start Naxx and don't think you have the solid gear (Which you, both two and four piece bonus allow you to use a two hander and do decently on par with dual wielding) then go the 32/39 Slow/Fast route. It's a preference thing right now and I think Dual Wielding is pretty much on par with both Frost and Unholy 2 hander. At least with the gear I'm wearing, I don't see much difference. The big thing is the Ghoul being permanent adding about 300 to 500 dps depending on the situation. This usually gives dual wielding the edge over the other specs at this time.

[Frehk]

Out of all the specs you provided, only the dual wiled showed any promise BUT only after I made some changes to it. 1 was the Necrosis. Outta there. Put the 3 points from Necrosis into Outbreak for added DPS. B was dropping the point in Gargoyle and putting into Impurity so it was full. The extra shadow damage from auto attacks was negligible. You already had stated in your "compendium" white damage hit cap is 754 rating therefore..well you get it. 3 was the 2 points in Chill of the Grave. Took them out and changed it around some. Put points in Annihilation for free swings of Obliterate without the loss of DOTs. 1 point back in Imp Icy Talons. 3 points into Rime. 1 back in Howling Blast which gave me an extra point I put in On a Pale Horse. Also the rotations from EVERY spec leave downtime on runes so I never followed them. As a DK, if you lack runes you lack DPS. I worked it out and was able to achieve 2600 DPS average and a cool 4k average off of grouped mobs all in H dungeons like Gun Drak.

Basically what Im trying to say, there is not a Hero build which will make you a GOD in WoW where you solo every Heroic dungeon or Naxx on Heroic. If you are searching for 1, the game will pass you by. You can use some of these specs but my suggestion is to not follow them to the exact point and use the rotations as an idea for a better rotation.

I have tried every spec and every rotation here but still am missing something.

[Krenian]

Out of all the specs you provided, only the dual wiled showed any promise BUT only after I made some changes to it. 1 was the Necrosis. Outta there. Put the 3 points from Necrosis into Outbreak for added DPS. B was dropping the point in Gargoyle and putting into Impurity so it was full. The extra shadow damage from auto attacks was negligible. You already had stated in your "compendium" white damage hit cap is 754 rating therefore..well you get it. 3 was the 2 points in Chill of the Grave. Took them out and changed it around some. Put points in Annihilation for free swings of Obliterate without the loss of DOTs. 1 point back in Imp Icy Talons. 3 points into Rime. 1 back in Howling Blast which gave me an extra point I put in On a Pale Horse. Also the rotations from EVERY spec leave downtime on runes so I never followed them. As a DK, if you lack runes you lack DPS. I worked it out and was able to achieve 2600 DPS average and a cool 4k average off of grouped mobs all in H dungeons like Gun Drak.

Basically what Im trying to say, there is not a Hero build which will make you a GOD in WoW where you solo every Heroic dungeon or Naxx on Heroic. If you are searching for 1, the game will pass you by. You can use some of these specs but my suggestion is to not follow them to the exact point and use the rotations as an idea for a better rotation.

I have tried every spec and every rotation here but still am missing something.

I find it interesting that you are going to criticize every build in my compendium and call them 'lacking' and yet these are all commonly accepted builds in the Death Knight community. If you don't believe that, you may wanna go back to the World of Warcraft forums and take a second look. The only build that has not been covered yet is the 27/44 or the 21/50 build that has been currently touted for two handers. This is mostly because I've yet to run with the build and test it out, which I will next week. Now, reading your post, I'm not even sure you grasp the concept of your own class and you need a bit more 'enlighting'.

"1 was the Necrosis. Outta there. Put the 3 points from Necrosis into Outbreak for added DPS."

So...you're taking a skill that's really only seen to be good to add a bit more damage to PS, which isn't a strike that most rely on for a dual wield build, or some AoE damage with BB, for a skill that passively gives you 12% damage every white swing you land. Where your white damage is the highest damage you should have in a dual wield skill. Right. Hey, if you want to be king of AoE trash, that's your choice, however it is not a DPS increase to switch the points unless we talk about strickly using AoE capabilities. Then yes, it's better. However most boss fights, (Or rather, the fights that you should, you know, actually care about), are single target fights making Outbreak less than great. So no, Outbreak is not a good skill point ot put in.

"B was dropping the point in Gargoyle and putting into Impurity so it was full. The extra shadow damage from auto attacks was negligible."

...Why would you remove one point out of the gargoyle, even post nerf. That's a 3 minute cooldown that roughly gives you about as much dps as your ghoul does when it comes out. Yes, the nerf was severe however the Gargoyle is still a strong pet and will boost your DPS up much higher than that last point in Impurity. I agree if you think the gargoyle is a pain in the ass to keep alive and to use but on a fight where AoE is minimum, I can keep him up just fine for the 30 seconds he's now in for.

"You already had stated in your "compendium" white damage hit cap is 754 rating therefore..well you get it."

White damage hit cap IS 754. If you go and just stick with getting hit rating to maximize this, you've not followed any guide for any melee classes nowadays. Hit is great but it is definitely not the best stat after capping your yellow damage. And that's no more than 295 I believe. Above that, Strenght, Crit and AP give you more damage. Just like a Fury Warrior. Just like a Mutilate rogue. Just like any dual wielding class in the game right now. Hit is good. Hit is not the best stat post yellow damage. Yes your white damage will go up, but it is only one damage. You are doing a good 70% of your damage being yellow damage. You may as well upgrade it's damage potential for the best amount.

"3 was the 2 points in Chill of the Grave. Took them out and changed it around some. Put points in Annihilation for free swings of Obliterate without the loss of DOTs. 1 point back in Imp Icy Talons. 3 points into Rime. 1 back in Howling Blast which gave me an extra point I put in On a Pale Horse."

Right here it shows me you didn't bother reading any lower and looking at the 32/39 build or the 44/27 build linked. Take a look at the guide and fully read it instead of just browsing through one of the three builds. If you're putting points in obliterate, you aren't understanding weapon damage skills. Obliterate is not a skill you want to use ever with the weapons you use as a dual wielding Death Knight: 1) Oblit will not hit hard at all with a one hander, even a slow one. It was meant as a two hander skill so leave it at that. 2) I'm thinking you're one of those individuals that uses the Sigil of Awareness while dual wielding instead of realizing the awesome potential of the Sigil that you can buy from Venture Coins. It > Awareness for Dual wielding period. If Rime procs, use IT/PS again over Oblit.

Second, all my dual wield builds have Imp Talons and Rime, so I'm not sure your "Put points there" argument comes into play. Not having either is stupid in a dual wield build and all three builds show that it's there. One point back in Howling blast? That's the whole point of the spec. In fact, I thought maybe you had just removed the points out and just rebuilt the spec from grabbing the Obliterate skill and by looking at any points possible that you said, the way you're doing things looks pretty stupid and no offense, a horrible build to a two hander.

"Also the rotations from EVERY spec leave downtime on runes so I never followed them."

The only spec out of all the specs here that has EVER given me 'downtime' is the Unholy build which I tweaked around and now have no downtime or I've tighten my rotation. I'm not sure what you're doing but you're not following my rotations if you're having rune downtime. Again, these are COMMONLY ACCEPTED rotations from many forums themselves and rotations tried and tested by members of this community who have seen the best dps come out of this on a solid, optimal fights.

"As a DK, if you lack runes you lack DPS. I worked it out and was able to achieve 2600 DPS average and a cool 4k average off of grouped mobs all in H dungeons like Gun Drak."

Grats on the 5 man runs. If it works for you, that's fine but it's obvious to me that you really don't understand your class that well and I don't think the numbers are quite true so I'll have to ask for an SS to prove this one.

No offense but rereading your post, you really don't grasp the simple concepts of the DK class and you may wanna go reread some stuff. I rather not be critical but you didn't offer any good advice in your post.

[nips]

Tony i have not read the whole thread since i'm such a slacker so excuse me if its already been discussed..
I'm just curious on how much your obl hits bosses for compared to howling blast and what crit ratings do you get on the 2 abilities?
Atm i'm still undecided on whitch one to use. Without two handed weapon specialization and the obl glyp my hb hits for more and it crits more often with km and imp icy talons, but on the other hand obl would hit for more if i speced/glyphted for it?
Obl is ofc more wepon dependant for max performance, but even after getting Inevitable Defeat it feels lackluster after the change in km.

[Krenian]

Obliterate will always outdamage Howling Blast and you can chain Obliterate whereas Howling Blast has a 5 second cooldown.

Let me explain.

On a frost rotation, you can do PS > IT > OB > BS > BS > FS dump as your first rotation. If Rime procs, you can throw Howling Blast at the same time as your FS dump. Now, after this, it's quite plausible to do PS > IT > OB > OB > FS dump. You couldn't pull that with HB due to the fact of the 5 second cooldown it has and thus you can't chain your attacks.

Does Howling Blast seem to do more damage? Yes. Is it in fact more damage? Not really due to the fact that a) Your set will increase it's damage b) The Sigil will increase it's damage and c) You're doing more Oblits than you do HBs.