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Thread: Death Knight Raid DPS Compendium (FR/BL/UH)

  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henryhimself View Post
    So if, theoretically, a DK had, oh, lets say 2800 unbuffed ap without bladed armor, and they were using the 0/10/61 build, how much more dps would they do using 12/0/59?
    A lot more. The whole point of 10/61 and 0/51/20 is to clear up the blood talents you need for lower gear that with uld 25 you really dont need (if you've looked at some geared DK's with full 25 uld u'll notice 1500 str unbuffed in most cases) So in my honest opinion until you can get a ton more gear from uld you're better off with blood specced unholy.

  2. #402
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    Theoretically, I said you may wanna wait till you get 3500 unbuffed before jumping into Frost/Unholy. >.>

    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    So I'm thinking somewhere around 3500 without bladed Armor could work out for you.
    See! I did say it!

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  3. #403
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    Hm, interesting. Another question though: while its obvious that 500 ap unbuffed is superior to 10% more dmg when you have low ap, what about raid buffed? when you have 5k ap raid buffed, is the extra 500 ap still that much better than an extra 10% dmg? You're literally choosing between increasing either AP by 10% or shadow/frost dmg by 10%.

  4. #404
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    It's pretty much that Frost/Shadow buff scales better than the extra AP. You'll only get the extra ap every 180 points of armor extra on your gear. Taking the Frost/Shadow 10% increase, all your damage in that regard goes up 10%. This also is done after all calculations are set therefore it takes in your AP and your damage and adds that extra 10%

    It's more of a question of scaling. At one point, it just scales better than the AP buff.

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  5. #405
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    Krenian,

    When was the last update to your compendium? With all the changes to dk's as of late what is your general analysis on spec's and rotations etc.

    I do realise as there is no "Best dps spec" as fight dynamics boil down to which one will shine more. We have one of each represented in our raids and different ones will be on top depending on the fight except for XT you will see the rogue.

    I guess my real question is does this compendium still hold relatively true for today's up and coming dk's.
    True Bonding Occurs when you wipe your raid and then your raid wipes you in return - Tarigar

  6. #406
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    This has been set up for 3.1.2 for all as I know..Says it in the guide I'm almost sure too.

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  7. #407
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    It does I just need to learn to read better.
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  8. #408
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    Possiblay!

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  9. #409
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    Alright folks, it is that time again. Patch notes have been released and yours truly is going to look into these changes and explain what it will mean, on a DPS side, for the Death Knight Class. Now you all need to remember this: These are NOT set in stone and they may or may not show into the live 3.2. However it is good to see where Blizzard is planning on going with this.

    ˇ Blood Strike: The bonus damage this ability receives from diseases on the target has been increased to 50% per disease.

    No matter how you cut it..that change is a HUGE buff to the skill, however I must confess that I am a bit skeptical of a strike that could more damage than the 41 point Blood Talent. Furthermore, this will help Frost and Unholy with a bit more damage out of this skill which usually turns into a Death Rune changer more than anything. It will be left to be seen if Blood will start phasing out Heart Strike for single target attacks in favor of Heart Strike, and vice versa for more than one target in a melee situation.

    ˇ Chains of Ice: Now reduces movement by 95% instead of 100%. The main effect of this change will be that targets of Chains of Ice will not have to re-issue a movement command to continue moving.

    This sounds more of a fix than anything to be honest. No longer will it make people completely lock down in place with no movement, but it will act more as a snare to slow individuals down and gradually decrease. It could be seen as a PvP nerf of sorts however the way they worded this one sounds more of a fix for mobs and players alike not to have to hit a key to keep moving. Most movers, if they hold down a key, will prolly not move if they get immobilized. I believe this is a change to address that notion. If anything, I’d say more of a fix than a nerf to be honest.

    ˇ Frost Presence: 10% bonus health reduced to 6% bonus stamina.

    The main reason for this change is probably to bring the health pool of a Death Knight back down to Warrior/Paladin levels. From what it looks like, in terms of health, It sounds like Blizzard is setting up for Druid > Death Knight > Warrior > Paladin. However this can be highly debated and this is just personal thoughts from my viewpoint. It should not change too much other than potentially lowering a Death Knight health pool to a moremoderate amount.

    ˇ Frost Strike: This ability can now be dodged, parried, or blocked. Weapon damage bonus reduced to 55%, down from 60%.

    Now this is a change that is more or less a nerf no matter what you cut it. This is mostly to try to alleviate Frost Strikes damage potential in PvP. With an ability that cannot be dodged, missed or parried, as well as cuts through armor like nothing, theres a problem. And its a problem that needed to be addressed in that fashion. It kinda sucks, but its going to lower damage output due to the lowered bonus damage, and it will make Frost look into Expertise a bit more than it already does.

    ˇ Icebound Fortitude: Cooldown increased to 2 minutes.

    You know, a lot of people were saying that this was the problem and that they should have had this ability brought up to two minutes and the rest back down to 1. Well…Guess they got half of what they wanted. By no means is this done but this pretty much once more brings a nerf to the Death Knight class by making us having to use our cooldowns more sparingly. Some will argue it was needed, others will cry foul. Seeing this is more of a DPS discussion, it simply lowers one’s survivability while taking AoE damage.



    ˇ Talents
    • Blood
      • Dancing Rune Weapon: This ability now has a fixed duration of 12 seconds (which can still be modified by its glyph) and a fixed cost of 60 runic power.
    This makes the ability a lot less clunkier than one would think, however it no longer will go for an extended time. This could help out however in a PvE sense because you can fire it off it’s CD immediately instead of always waiting for the 100/130 RP. This will smooth rotations out and let you have more control. However, you cannot deny that it’s shorter than the normal amount of time that it usually is out right now which means in the end..? Yet another nerf to the ability. DRW is starting to look like a poor bastard child for Blood. A shame…
      • Veteran of the Third War: Stamina bonus reduced to 1/2/3%.
    Well, that’s less health for Blood tanks, and for us taking the ability, it’s a bit less of a cushion for incoming damage. Blood tanks won’t like it, but it doesn’t affect our DPS to be honest other than run us the risk of dying maybe a bit faster, bout it.
    • Frost
      • Blood of the North: Reduced to a 3-point talent. Increases Blood Strike and Frost Strike damage by 5/10/15%. There is now a 33/66/100% chance whenever you hit with Blood Strike or Pestilence that the Blood Rune will become a Death Rune when it activates.
    This allows a bit of breathing room in Frost to get other talents. This frees up two points now and allows us to put them elsewhere. In any fashion, this either allows us to get survivability or mobility. I’d say it’s a buff because really, you could put the points elsewhere that may give you the increase.
      • Lichborne: Duration reduced to 10 seconds, and cooldown reduced to 2 minutes.
    Shorter duration, shorter cooldown. Depends on really how long PvP lasts nowadays. If it’s less than 2 minutes, it’s a nerf. If it’s more, it’s a buff. So I’m going to pull a weird one and just say not applicable in my decision because really…it’s circumstantial. And I’ve yet to see a build in PvE that takes Lichborne. I know I don’t.
      • Threat of Thassarian: New 3-point talent. When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike.
    Well this is an interesting new talent. This is Blizzard starting to listen to Dual Wielders around the world that want the ability to do damage the potential to do so. Looking at this, it will increase the yellow damage of dual wielding by a significant amount, and it does answer the call of getting dual wielding viable. How viable? That’s left to be seen, but it’s a change that will have to be tested. Will Dual Wielding top two handers with this? That’s left to be seen. But it’s an interesting look at it. Something to look at even moreso is the fact that only the strikes are going to do the extra offhand damage. Seeing how Dual Wielding’s efficiency was mostly based on magic damage, this changes the dynamics and makes things interesting. Depending on how it plays out and where in the Frost tree this ability does land, it can either bring a new light to the tri spec builds. All in all, this sounds interesting enough.
      • Toughness: This talent now grants 2/4/6/8/10% armor instead of 3/6/9/12/15%, placing it in line with similar abilities of other classes.
    Unless you were getting this talent for extra Bladed Armor AP, this doesn’t affect DPS. However tanks are now back down to lower armor. With the change to armor they did as of late, our Armor seems to be dangerously low now. This might be something that people need to look at. (Ahem tanky tanks)
    • Unholy
      • Desecration: This talent has been reduced to 2 points for 25/50% snare and no longer increases damage done by the death knight. It has also been moved one tier earlier in the tree and its spell effect has been made more transparent.
      • Desolation: New talent. This talent is in the position formerly occupied by Desecration. It causes Blood Strikes to increase all damage the death knight deals by 1/2/3/4/5% for 12 seconds.
    Going to put these two together; This really helps out in a PvE situation. Now you can just grab the Desolation talent and increase your damage up for 12 second which is nice. This however is concerning due to the fact Unholy’s rotation largely is based by not having to use Blood Strike, which is usually used only twice in a twenty second window. Furthermore, this changes how the dynamics work for Unholy due to the fact Desecration was proc’ed off of Plague Strike and Scourge Strike. There is a much stronger emphasis now to use Blood Strike and potentially change Unholy’s rotation. It almost feels like they are trying to move people from just Scourge Strike spamming and start using a more basic rotation. However this makes no sense: Blood Strike is used to change your strikes into Death Runes to Scourge Strike once more in your second rotation. But with the changes in Blood Strike, it becomes more apparent that the strike should be used. The more I think about it, the more the Blood Strike change somewhat makes no sense. The strike itself was fine and dandy, however with this change, it almost makes the strike elite in it’s own fashion and more of a pain to deal with the decision of either using a FU or using two Blood runes. Looking at it right now, you’re almost better off using Blood Strike with Unholy due to the fact that Unholy benefits from a third disease, which is another 50%. I’m going out of the discussion here however it all comes back to this split: More emphasis on blood Strike in a tree that has a Scourge Strike rotation. The timer may be wanted to be looked at and placed at a higher value, say 15 or 18 seconds. This would allow a full scourge strike rotation currently implemented to remain the same. If the change does not go in that I suggest, it will make an interesting few days for people to figure out which one would be best. Watch your favorite theorycrafters figure this one out, for sure.
      • Scourge Strike: Weapon damage bonus reduced to 40%, down from 45%. Damage increased by 10% per disease on the target, down from 11%.
    Lowering the main attack in the Unholy tree only seems to make me suspect what I stated above to become more and more true. Yes, the attack completely ignores armor, however it is become more and more noticeable that Scourge Strike may not be your best answer anymore other than an FU usage. In this fashion, it may become that the 41 point talent in Unholy may start to look rather bleak. (I’m not saying it will, however you must wonder if point per point, Unholy’s damage is not taking a rather solid hit due to this.)
      • Summon Gargoyle: The gargoyle now flies lower to the ground, making it susceptible to melee attacks. This ability now has a fixed duration of 30 seconds and a fixed cost of 60 runic power.
    Similarly mimicking Dancing Rune Weapon’s change, the one change that is glaringly seen is the fact that the gargoyle is now in melee capable damage. This may cause drastic changes in PvP as the gargoyle seems to be rather squishy in my opinion and will not be something to use unless someone is mobile and is no where near the ability to kill the gargoyle. The PvE change is not as drastic, however any low AoE melee attacks will now put the gargoyle at risk and one will have to double their watch when it comes to that situation. This skill is becoming more and more of a pain to deal with due to it’s annoying mechanics of having to watch everything around you before using the skill. The one good note? It no longer sucks any RP out of you. Click and go, thank you. This may be very nice in a PvE situation due to the fact you fire and forget just like DRW, which means you will have more time to focus NOT only on shooting off your RP now in the Death Coil form (Which means the Sigil of Vengeful Heart may actually serve some use to Unholy Death Knights), but to just ignore the gargoyle and let it do it’s thing. That’s barring the fact that you have to keep in mind of all melee now being able to target this sucker.
      • Unholy Blight: This talent has been redesigned. It no longer deals damage to nearby targets. Instead, when you deal damage with Death Coil, the target will take periodic damage for 10 seconds equal to 30% of the damage done by Death Coil. This damage accumulates in the same way as Ignite and Deep Wounds.
    Huh. This seriously puts a dent in Unholy’s AoE king tanking abilities. Unholy Death Knights now only have Death and Decay to rely on when it comes to that, with the mix of a now blood talented Blood Boil to do any AoE of sorts. This means that Frost may now become the AoE tank of choice with Howling Blast. I’m not sure I like this change in a tanking situation, however as a DPS, this will make more sense due to the change I explained up in the Gargoyle section: You will make MORE focus on Death Coil, which means again, the Sigil of Vengeful Heart will be a bit more useful, and you will have a steady DoT ticking on a mob. Now if the tick that mob is worth the damage loss from AoE dps that the current UB is doing, is left to be seen. However I’m sure theorycrafters will look into this.

    Thoughts:

    All and all, I’m not too sure where I stand with the changes at this time. On one hand, dual wielding has been given a skill to allow itself to potentially bring itself back to it’s former glory, a la Mutilate. I’m not sure this was the best way to go around it, but it does comply to what people were asking for: the ability to hit with strikes with both weapons. However tanking for a Death Knight has severely been hit by many of these changes. A lot of people will want to look into this and decide what exactly they plan on doing to work out these changes. Some of these may even seem a bit extreme. However fear not, some people will do the testing and if all changes do not work out the way they should, I have no doubt that Blizzard will rectify this somehow and give us some sort of help. At this point, I would like to stipulate that we may very well be the lowest armored tanks in the game with the lack of the shield or high health that druids get. I suppose we are going towards the same goals that Blizzard wanted us: A class which uses cooldowns to tank, however cooldowns have exactly that: cooldowns. During the time we have no cooldowns to work with, which will now happen due to the 2 minutes on most if not all our skills having only a 10 to 30 second duration, you will have to be smart on how you use them. We can still chain cooldowns fine and dandy, however it will take some tightening on our part to actually succeed.

    More thoughts will be discussed when we look and actually get more information on the changes, and as 3.2 comes nearer. However it may be ready to point out now, that from what it looks like, we may see a slight dip in our position when it comes to DPS.

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  10. #410
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    Im curious of Dual wielding will be a good specc in 3.2 ( Lets hope so )

  11. #411
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    Krenian,

    One of the dk's in my guild considers the unholy changes a buff to his dps. The reason being is he will no longer be wasting a gcd on UB and it will just be present through DC procs.
    True Bonding Occurs when you wipe your raid and then your raid wipes you in return - Tarigar

  12. #412
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    OMG thats awesome news that DW may get a well deserved bump. Thank god I stuck with it after 3.1 I have been collecting 1h weapons that no one else has wanted.

    I have Razorscale and Remorse.

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarigar View Post
    Krenian,

    One of the dk's in my guild considers the unholy changes a buff to his dps. The reason being is he will no longer be wasting a gcd on UB and it will just be present through DC procs.
    This could very well be however in AoE situations he should see a dip in his DPS to be honest. UB was very powerful in AoE packs as it was a fire and forget and an AoE attack that hit pretty much everything every tick. Now? The attack is simply focused on one character and acts like a 'deep wounds' or an 'ignite' proc. Their single target damage may indeed increase, but their AoE damage and tanking capabilities have severely been hindered by the change.

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  14. #414
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    You know...I was looking at the Sigils and one thing struck me as pretty odd.

    Take a look at the DPS Sigil. Notice something missing? Let me show you.

    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...e/at_32_44.jpg

    Let's look at the wording:

    Each time you use your Obliterate or Scourge Strike ability, you have a chance to gain 200 Strength for 20 sec.

    ...notice something missing out of there.

    Where the heck is my Death Strike!? x.x

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  15. #415
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    Errta from Mal'Ganis has come up with a rather interesting video about 0/17/54 dual wielding Unholy DPS that shows them hitting 6.3k DPS with barely any damage done to the constructs as well. I must say that's quite impressive to be honest on the sole factor that it takes a lot of prioritizing to make this build work. I invite anyone who really wants to push Unholy DPS with dual wielding tendencies until 3.2 to check it out:

    World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> DW Unholy vs Ignis25 6300+DPS(Video)

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  16. #416
    As a blood death knight, do I use blood presence or unholy?

  17. #417
    Blood. Unholy should only really be reserved for Frost.

  18. #418
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    Never use Unholy presence as Blood. Your rotation is too tight with Blood Presence to NOT use it. It just fits the spec too well.

    The only time I will ever say to switch to an Unholy presence is either if you're testing out that whacked dual weapon spec they have going out there or if you're just overflowing with RP in Frost Presence that you cannot safely do a dump of some sort at the end without sacrificing one Frost Strike every time.

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  19. #419
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    Now, I use to DPS as a blood DK and I use to dual spec between blood/unholy, I wasn't entire sure which one was better to use because I am a DK who likes to go with whichever puts out more DPS. Now at times depending on the boss fight I put out a lot of DPS as blood, but other fights I put out more as unholy. Now the thing is with UB it is an AoE attack, but with Dancing Rune casted then blood boil casted it is also an AoE with just a longer cooldown. I am not entirely sure which one I should go back with as my DPS spec, I may just stay tanking and put my other spec as PvP.

  20. #420
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    Both specs seriously pull out similar DPS if you play both of them the way you should. Unholy will win out in the long run if there's more than 3-4 mobs to deal with. Blood usually will win out if you need to burst something down in a phase, say XT's heart mode or Hodir Hard Mode.

    It's a choice thing but come 3.2, Unholy will probably lose out a bit of AoE dps and gain more Single Target in the form of Unholy Blight's change. you also may see it dip slightly lower than Blood on Single Target due to the nerfs done to Scourge Strike and whatnot. It'll have to be tested.

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