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Thread: Death Knight Raid DPS Compendium (FR/BL/UH)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelython View Post
    DUAL WIELDING DPS:

    To be posted with more information once I've tested out the spec a bit more.


    I see you have begun a dual wield spec. I have loved your guides before and have seen a lot of people rolling the 0/32/39 spec. I'd just like to know how your rotation for this spec will go. I am a Blood/semi-unholy kinda guy and dont know much about the HB specs. Any insight would be lovely. I can be emailed at hmscrack@hotmail.com, but i also keep my eyes on this post.

    P.S. - I have wondered for a while, what is so wrong with Desecration?
    I visit this site frequently (You can tell considering I wrote the guide ) so I will probably answer any questions here.

    At first, I tried the 13/32/26 tri-spec. This spec is really a good starter spec when your gear is less than flattering (We're talking in blues here). It balances everything out and gives you some much needed stats.

    When your gear begins to look more and more towards what I have going right now (I'm currently sitting 4/5 T7.5 and pretty much epic'ed out atm.), 32/39 will begin to outshine.

    Rotation for both specs are the following:

    PS > IT > HB > BS > BS > DC dump (Or Gargoyle if at 100)

    Lately however, with the 32/39 spec, I've been doing things a bit differently. Seeing how Icy Touch is really a damaging attack in this and your ice damage really is a big thing, I've been playing with this rotation and have seen some scary numbers: (5000+ dps on Instructor Rav. Don't ask me why, but he's the guy I do the most damage on, not Patchwerk.)

    PS > IT > HB > BS > BS > DC dump (Or Gargoyle)

    Followed by

    PS > IT > HB > IT > IT > DC dump

    The point is with a 32/39 spec that BS turns your blood runes into death runes. With that in mind, I replace BS, which is a weapon damage skill (And two fast weapons are what are really required to make the spec shine.) and use IT, which is a pure AP factor which usually will hit a LOT harder.

    Desecration in itself is not as bad as people think. It's a 5% increase to your damage. The problem, however, is any fight that you are bound to move, you are going to lose out on the buff. Also, it's graphic is rather annoying and covers up key detail. I remember one wipe in particular where my GM couldn't see the poisons Grobbulus drops at his feet which caused him to stand in there a lot longer than he should of and strained our healers a bit too much.

    It's a highly circumstancial ability that can at the most have 3 points in the skill, equating to a 60% chance of it proc'ing. I just find I could just max out Necrosis for it's full potential and just put one point in On a Pale Horse (Which is not a dps increase btw, just no where else really to put the point and 20% desecration didn't seem like there was a point). Some people take it, others don't. Really, it's entirely up to the player and how comfortable he feels when he's got to move around and recast Plague Strike just to get the extra damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blueduck3285 View Post
    Tony, what about your thoughts on the up coming changes where they are taking the CD off Howling Blast and its new found viable for spammability with dps?

    I was just thinking that if all goes as planned, HB could replace Oblit entirely though my guess is that Oblit has a higher chance of criting than HB(?). With crit all rolled into one like hit is, there shouldnt be any reason HB couldnt crit as often as Oblit right? The only thing I can see as a draw back is the lower end damage being that much lower than Oblit could leave it as unattractive as when it had a CD.

    I mostly like the idea of the No CD HB for aoe threat gen while Im tanking :-)
    For dual wielding, Howling Blast is key to the rotation. Our rotations will change very quickly to maximize the amount of HBs. Also, you may very well see 13/32/26 spec potentially just die because the need to change your blood runes to death runes will be paramount to a sucessful dps rotation.

    AoE Wise, for both dual wield and two hander, this just gave a HUGE boost to AoE tanking as frost. My guess is that you're going to see a lot more AoE tanks like the frost spec as you could blast off three Howling Blasts for a ton of AoE threat.

    And as for Obliterate vs HB? On AoE targets, HB will be your tool to replace. However, with the Sigil of Awareness plus the damage that Obliterate can dish out, it will probably never replace Obliterate for two handers. With a dual wield build, I find myself hardly ever using Obliterate as an Icy Touch + Plague Strike after using Rime seems to be the better damage output. This is untrue when it comes to a two hander where Obliterate usually shines. So no, I don't think Obliterate will be removed from two handed rotations just yet. And I think you do have an idea about HB critting more often, but, I'd still only use HB when Rime proc'ed and use Obliterate. But who knows, hell, I was surprised when they said they'd do that because that really shoves unholy in the face when it comes to AoE tanking as it now pretty much solidifies Frost as a great tank for both single target and AoE target. But tanking ain't my real forté so I will not touch that and let the tanks debate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by xKhellendrosx View Post
    Howling blast spam is what the 0/32/39 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft DW spec is completely built around. (mind 3 points can be moved around between reaping, virulence, and ravenous dead) Unless they change how often Killing Machine - Spell - World of Warcraft can proc the DPS of this build is just going to shoot up even further. I'm already able to give most of the DPS classes in my guild a run for their money in this build and they are all getting tired of listening to me talk about how crazy it will be once HB is cooldown free.

    HB coming off cooldown also buffs Frost Tankings AoE threat buildup as well.
    Pretty much what he said is right. AoE threat's going to shoot up so much for Frost Tanks that it may potentially cripple Unholy. That's still left for the judges to see but I have a funny feeling you'll see a lot more Frost tanks now.

    I'm usually at the top of the DPS meters on most fights (When my ghoul and gargoyle decide not to be idiots and die at the start of the fight...). It'll be interesting to change the rotation to something new...and as I can see now by loading WoW, 3.0.8 STILL hasn't been released, which is utter balls. ><

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonypablos View Post
    I visit this site frequently (You can tell considering I wrote the guide ) so I will probably answer any questions here.

    At first, I tried the 13/32/26 tri-spec. This spec is really a good starter spec when your gear is less than flattering (We're talking in blues here). It balances everything out and gives you some much needed stats.

    When your gear begins to look more and more towards what I have going right now (I'm currently sitting 4/5 T7.5 and pretty much epic'ed out atm.), 32/39 will begin to outshine.

    Rotation for both specs are the following:

    PS > IT > HB > BS > BS > DC dump (Or Gargoyle if at 100)
    That rotation might work fine on a single target but it changes when you need to AoE. Since you need to work a Pestilence in before you HB, and You might use blood boil over BS.

    I'd also say Desecration is a must in the 0/32/39 spec as that extra 5% damage with everything you do +the 2% bonus from bone shield being up is pretty nice. I believe GC posted something on the official boards about them possibly looking into changing how DKs ground effects look. I had to explain to my guild a few times on grobbulus last night that the green circles with the hands in them weren't poison clouds. Also they did say that they plan to nerf Gargoyle eventually as its apparently putting out too much damage. Tony I might also suggest adding either Cinderglacier (20% more damage to a frost/shadow attack) or Razorice (10% more frost damage with enough stacks on an enemy) to one of your weapons as you try out the HB spamming.
    Last edited by xKhellendrosx; 01-06-2009 at 10:31 AM. Reason: wanted to add something.

  3. #23
    Cinder/Fallen Crusader is the best combo but not by much, if you are running with a few mages then Razorice is what you should use on main hand.

    If the HB changes goes live there will be inc nerfage to dual weild prob via Kiling Machine which is gonna take alot of the fun outta the spec. I personally don't have any trouble what so ever AE tanking as frost right now I can hold aggro realy well via DnD, Pest, HB. BB. They should just leave HB alone, I would rather them not nerf KM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by xKhellendrosx View Post
    That rotation might work fine on a single target but it changes when you need to AoE. Since you need to work a Pestilence in before you HB, and You might use blood boil over BS.

    I'd also say Desecration is a must in the 0/32/39 spec as that extra 5% damage with everything you do +the 2% bonus from bone shield being up is pretty nice. I believe GC posted something on the official boards about them possibly looking into changing how DKs ground effects look. I had to explain to my guild a few times on grobbulus last night that the green circles with the hands in them weren't poison clouds. Also they did say that they plan to nerf Gargoyle eventually as its apparently putting out too much damage. Tony I might also suggest adding either Cinderglacier (20% more damage to a frost/shadow attack) or Razorice (10% more frost damage with enough stacks on an enemy) to one of your weapons as you try out the HB spamming.
    Like any situation, you have to realize when to use your skills for single target and when to use your skills on AoE sections. Of course I know that the rotation is a single target rotation and in no ways AoE.

    The following rotation is for AoE purposes as a Dual Wielding DK:

    PS > IT > Pest > BB > HB > DC dump on whatever target you're on.

    At this point it'll depend on how much is left on your diseases. If there's still enough time, your rotation change to put two BBs instead of one. If not, just follow the above rotation. I also find throwing D&D in the mix is not a must as really, it's going to be rough to deal with a whole bunch of runes. I guess if you really wanted to do a lot of AoE off the bat, you'd hit D&D, then hit Empowered Rune to get your runes back. Or you could do D&D, IT, PS, Pest without the BB and hope that's enough AoE but you lose out on HB which is pivotal.

    Desecration once more is a choice. Again, on moving fights, Desecration will lose it's effect. Consider Grobbulus where you're constantly moving. 90% of the time when you hit him, desecration will come up and you already have to move out of the zone. In this, it's really 3 points wasted. So I would argue that it really depends on the situation. Right now, desecration's in the air with a lot of people. Some people vouch for it as it's a dps increase, and I won't deny it, it is. 5% is 5%. However it is highly situational and as such I would rather get gaurenteed damage such as 5/5 Necrosis than just go 3/5 necrosis like most 32/39 builds I've seen and put 3 points in a skill that can go off only 60% of the time.

    So really, once more, it depends on the situation. I personally don't feel like relying on it and make it up with going 5/5 Necrosis.

    Also, I'm already running with FC/Cinder at this time. Using dual Fangs, I'm already seeing the difference between just FC/FC. However I'd be curious to find out if a Cinder/Razor combination with a pure focus on our frost damage could potentially be on par with the lack of the FC proc. I doubt it, personally, as 30% str just increases everything instead of Razor's frost vulnerability...but it's worth to mention to test it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgrim Warcry View Post
    Cinder/Fallen Crusader is the best combo but not by much, if you are running with a few mages then Razorice is what you should use on main hand.

    If the HB changes goes live there will be inc nerfage to dual weild prob via Kiling Machine which is gonna take alot of the fun outta the spec. I personally don't have any trouble what so ever AE tanking as frost right now I can hold aggro realy well via DnD, Pest, HB. BB. They should just leave HB alone, I would rather them not nerf KM.
    For pure DPS purposes: FC/Cinder will be your best bet due to the fact that it simply raises your dps. For raid purposes, if you have two frost mages, then Razorice would be the suggested buff. However, oddly enough, at the most, my raid has two mages so I don't see the point of it. I will stick with my FC/Cinder combination and to be honest, that'd be what'd I suggest like Gorgrim says.

    My worry is just that with HB unchecked in any type of penalty, you could definitely see a chance that Killing Machine takes a nerf. I wouldn't wanna leave it to luck to say that the changes that will be coming in 3.0.8 won't be touched, but right now it's pretty nice to be a Dual wielding DPS DK.

    Now, this brings up the question: Is the change too strong that it will sucessfully destroy two handed builds. Tests will have to be run but from what I've been researching, right now, dual wield DKs on the PTR beat out every single other spec thanks to this change. we can rest assured that if this is the case, dual wielding will be penalized and what you're suggesting could most likely be true.

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  5. #25
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    Thanks for the work on the Guide Tony, been leveling a DK strictly with the intent to DPS and this has been very helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonypablos View Post
    Desecration once more is a choice. Again, on moving fights, Desecration will lose it's effect. Consider Grobbulus where you're constantly moving. 90% of the time when you hit him, desecration will come up and you already have to move out of the zone. In this, it's really 3 points wasted. So I would argue that it really depends on the situation. Right now, desecration's in the air with a lot of people. Some people vouch for it as it's a dps increase, and I won't deny it, it is. 5% is 5%. However it is highly situational and as such I would rather get gaurenteed damage such as 5/5 Necrosis than just go 3/5 necrosis like most 32/39 builds I've seen and put 3 points in a skill that can go off only 60% of the time.

    So really, once more, it depends on the situation. I personally don't feel like relying on it and make it up with going 5/5 Necrosis.


    I'd love to see how your spec'd for your 39 points in Unholy as I pick up both 3/5 Desecration (could go 5/5 if I wanted to pass on the 2/2 UA I give my raid as a buff) and 5/5 Necrosis.

    You could check my character and see how I'm currently talented though I think I'm going to swap my points in Virulence for Ravenous Dead. As well as pick up the Grasscutter to go with my Mace, it won't be 1.5/1.5 speed weapons but 1.6/1.6 might work out decently. The 3 points in Desecration almost act as a filler because your only other options getting to Boneshield/Crypt Fever outside of Outbreak are really not very helpful dps wise.

  7. #27
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    Dual Wield DPS rotations, stat priorities as well as specs are now added. Feel free to comment, post or what have you.

    Quote Originally Posted by xKhellendrosx View Post
    I'd love to see how your spec'd for your 39 points in Unholy as I pick up both 3/5 Desecration (could go 5/5 if I wanted to pass on the 2/2 UA I give my raid as a buff) and 5/5 Necrosis.

    You could check my character and see how I'm currently talented though I think I'm going to swap my points in Virulence for Ravenous Dead. As well as pick up the Grasscutter to go with my Mace, it won't be 1.5/1.5 speed weapons but 1.6/1.6 might work out decently. The 3 points in Desecration almost act as a filler because your only other options getting to Boneshield/Crypt Fever outside of Outbreak are really not very helpful dps wise.

    Right now i'm 0/32/39 on Krenian, take a look, Llane server. Or you can just click on my character under my name in a post and find Krenian. he should be the first one. But I skipped out on Desecration completely and the one point I'm kinda meh about is On a Pale Horse. It's no dps increase whatsoever however I can't seem to make myself even put it in Desecration or another area.

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonypablos View Post
    Dual Wield DPS rotations, stat priorities as well as specs are now added. Feel free to comment, post or what have you.




    Right now i'm 0/32/39 on Krenian, take a look, Llane server. Or you can just click on my character under my name in a post and find Krenian. he should be the first one. But I skipped out on Desecration completely and the one point I'm kinda meh about is On a Pale Horse. It's no dps increase whatsoever however I can't seem to make myself even put it in Desecration or another area.
    Ahh now I see, you skip desecration to pick up ravenous, virulence, and reaping, where I tend to pick two of the three to max out. Yeah I personally would need to have at least 3/5 in desecration or else I wouldn't feel like it is worth it.

    Once, 3.0.8 comes out Corpse Explosion may be a viable candidate for that point in Pale Horse you have since CE will use RP instead of the unholy rune. I also have to say that I wish I had some of your dps gear from the 25 mans.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by xKhellendrosx View Post
    Ahh now I see, you skip desecration to pick up ravenous, virulence, and reaping, where I tend to pick two of the three to max out. Yeah I personally would need to have at least 3/5 in desecration or else I wouldn't feel like it is worth it.

    Once, 3.0.8 comes out Corpse Explosion may be a viable candidate for that point in Pale Horse you have since CE will use RP instead of the unholy rune. I also have to say that I wish I had some of your dps gear from the 25 mans.
    I'm content with what I have so far. However, I'm seriously hurting in the weapon department. These two 120 dps swords are really holding me back. However, there's a purple sword apparently in the bank calling for me so I might yoink that one lol I do have the Torment sword but something about the GoG build doesn't sit right with me. We'll see.

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonypablos View Post
    I'm content with what I have so far. However, I'm seriously hurting in the weapon department. These two 120 dps swords are really holding me back. However, there's a purple sword apparently in the bank calling for me so I might yoink that one lol I do have the Torment sword but something about the GoG build doesn't sit right with me. We'll see.
    Yeah I was actually landed another Maexxna's Femur - Item - World of Warcraft last night while in Naxx 10 man, so now I'm just dual wielding them. I'm assuming the sword you are talking about is the Avool's Sword of Jin - Item - World of Warcraft which isn't bad by any means I just thought it looked kind of goofy.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonypablos View Post
    I'm content with what I have so far. However, I'm seriously hurting in the weapon department. These two 120 dps swords are really holding me back. However, there's a purple sword apparently in the bank calling for me so I might yoink that one lol I do have the Torment sword but something about the GoG build doesn't sit right with me. We'll see.
    GoG is a hard spec rotation wise it seems, especially if you are using frost strike. I have been going back and forth between Hymms tri spec and GoG build. I keep going back to the Tri spec as the rotation is much easier and while I have seen an increase in dps on the dummy, in a raid situation the attention needed to the rotation is causing me an overall loss in dps although I fair better if I just stick with DC.

    This could be due to lack of experiance raiding with the spec or the main hand weapon I am using. I have the torment sword as well from 10 man Naxx, but from what I am seeing I don't believe that 10 man weapons are sufficent to out dps the trispec with using hte GoG build. A heavy hitting 25 man weapon may very well blow the tri-spec out of the water with the GoG build because Frost Strikes will be hitting harder and it won't matter as much dps wise if you eat a KM on frost strike as it does now. I have been using DC with the GoG build to allow me to actually pay attention to the fight and not just to my KM procs while it is giving me similar dps to the Tri-spec it is a much more intense rotation to manage.

    That said I also would like to state that in theroy crafting these long intricate rotations do produce the best dps but there is something to be said for a nice short simple one that allows you to maintain your high dps and actually pay attention to the fight.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgrim Warcry View Post
    GoG is a hard spec rotation wise it seems, especially if you are using frost strike. I have been going back and forth between Hymms tri spec and GoG build. I keep going back to the Tri spec as the rotation is much easier and while I have seen an increase in dps on the dummy, in a raid situation the attention needed to the rotation is causing me an overall loss in dps although I fair better if I just stick with DC.

    This could be due to lack of experiance raiding with the spec or the main hand weapon I am using. I have the torment sword as well from 10 man Naxx, but from what I am seeing I don't believe that 10 man weapons are sufficent to out dps the trispec with using hte GoG build. A heavy hitting 25 man weapon may very well blow the tri-spec out of the water with the GoG build because Frost Strikes will be hitting harder and it won't matter as much dps wise if you eat a KM on frost strike as it does now. I have been using DC with the GoG build to allow me to actually pay attention to the fight and not just to my KM procs while it is giving me similar dps to the Tri-spec it is a much more intense rotation to manage.

    That said I also would like to state that in theroy crafting these long intricate rotations do produce the best dps but there is something to be said for a nice short simple one that allows you to maintain your high dps and actually pay attention to the fight.
    Silent Crusader dropped in Naxx last night and I'm somewhat kicking myself in the rear for not taking it to test out GoG atm. But that's how life goes, you get some and you don't.

    Also simple rotations are always a nice thing to deal with. It's prioritizing your attacks and your rotations as well as your skills to ensure that on any fight, you're pushing out the most dps. Like I stated, DKs are one of the most flexible classes to play. It's up to the player to learn the experience needed to be as flexible as possible.

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  13. #33
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    My DW set is Silent Crusader and Hatestrike from normal Patch. I never tried the frost specs. And Silent Crusader is a bit slow for 0/32/39. I'm quite content with the 17/0/54 for now.


    Once my mate gets me my TS Destroyer I might go back to blood though. =)

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    First off love this forum!

    The question i have is DW hit cap...when does it become more damaging to your stats when trying for DW hit cap?

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    is what im working with right now and people are telling me that i have to much hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayna View Post
    First off love this forum!

    The question i have is DW hit cap...when does it become more damaging to your stats when trying for DW hit cap?

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    is what im working with right now and people are telling me that i have to much hit.
    You have way too much hit. And by way, I mean over 100 hit. This could be good if you don't feel like taking virulence however really, you're hurting your damage more than you think. White hit does take more dominance when dual wielding, however not enough for you to really look at it like rogues do. Furthermore, a good 70% of your damage is yellow damage, and that's directly upgraded by Attack Power. The maximum amount of hit needed would be to cap your yellow damage. However, with virulence and having either a shadow priest or a boomkin in your raid, you will be hit capped without going higher than the yellow damage cap for melee. Therefore it is always advised to look at group composition and work from there.

    I would ditch some of that hit and start focusing on some crit and attack power related stats (Ap or Str). You're a lot higher than I'd wanna be and this could affect your damage.

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  16. #36
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    With the changes to Killing Machine becoming a PPM Skill the popularity of the GoG and 32/39 builds will probably drop somewhat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xKhellendrosx View Post
    With the changes to Killing Machine becoming a PPM Skill the popularity of the GoG and 32/39 builds will probably drop somewhat.
    That's not true at all.

    Yes, Killing Machine's PPM system change does make things go differently but this is no different than it was for the Sudden Death change. Instead of it being upon a crit, it's now upon any hit done by your melee hit. Which means hit now takes a bigger priority in a dual wield build, which makes sense if you think about it because it'll help your white damage.

    It really is just a change of priorities. Instead of working on crit, you lower crit a little bit in priorities and put more emphasis on hit so your OH can hit and potentially proc KM.

    I really don't get why people think this is going to break dual wielding whatsoever. When Sudden Death changed, people QQed about how it would end Arms damage period. It didn't; Arms is still one very viable spec, both PvE and PvP. This is the same thing for the change. They didn't want DKs to solely work on getting crit after shafting their hit at the yellow cap, so they're making hit a more likable statistic.

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  18. #38
    Arms isnt really looking like a viable end-game raid spec any more once Fury has the gear they clearly execel over arms.

    As far as the KM changes go I think it will probably cause the specs to lose popularity simply because alot of people are doing it just to top the meters and will revert back to 2 handers if the dps changes enough to bring it back in line with 2 handers which is the devs intent.

    It is all still on test but with the fix to BCB and the massive nerf to Garg I think we will see more points in frost and fewer in unholy. Prob just enough to get the ghoul but I am just guessing. I am pretty sure we will definately see people moving away from F/F weapons and go to S/F or even S/S depending on how testing turns out.

    I hope they don't over nerf it, and take the fun out of it.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgrim Warcry View Post
    Arms isnt really looking like a viable end-game raid spec any more once Fury has the gear they clearly execel over arms.

    As far as the KM changes go I think it will probably cause the specs to lose popularity simply because alot of people are doing it just to top the meters and will revert back to 2 handers if the dps changes enough to bring it back in line with 2 handers which is the devs intent.

    It is all still on test but with the fix to BCB and the massive nerf to Garg I think we will see more points in frost and fewer in unholy. Prob just enough to get the ghoul but I am just guessing. I am pretty sure we will definately see people moving away from F/F weapons and go to S/F or even S/S depending on how testing turns out.

    I hope they don't over nerf it, and take the fun out of it.
    Accurate assumption.

    As it stands now, it won't really be nerfed. From what I've been poking my head about with regards to dual wielding, it seems like we're still over damaging two hand builds. But there's a theory I read somewhere about how dual wield will always excel over two hands due to the fact of how ap's scale with dual wield and two handers are. And they're right. So long as two handers stick with the same formula and don't get the bonus that two weapons do, it will never be a fair fight for one two hander.

    Also, you're also correct to assume we'd be losing points in Unholy. More and more I think that gargoyle's a bloody mistake. I cannot seem to get the stupid thing to work properly. Also, as soon as there's remotely any damage done that's in an AoE situation, the lil bugger dies and I get annoyed with a waste of 50 rp. Who knows, I'll have to do more tests but I'm now going to focus on a 44/26 spec. Without the ghoul out I was topping around 2.4k dps on my own buffed with horn. So yeah, I'm starting to think anyone with wanting to touch on it will either want to tri spec or GoG. Bone Armor may not be the best option anymore.

    Further tests will be needed.

    Tankspot Moderator
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  20. #40
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    stuck! DK DPS LOVE.

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