Deep wounds and impale, but at what price?

[Ahti]

I would be doing myself and my guild a disservice by not maxing shield spec, anticipation, and other talents that you all subtract to add impale/dw.

To be clear, the only mitigation or avoidance talent you sacrifice to add impale/DW is Shield Specialization. You can max Anticipation, Toughness, Deflection, and every other talent that contributes to survivability.

Most of what the common Impale/DW spec gives up is utility - you can't get things like Improved Spell Reflect, Safeguard, or Piercing Howl unless you're willing to give up some very good talents.

With the current level of content, I understand why people are ok with it. With upper level gear, its easily appropriate to drop some prot talents or not max cruelty for impale/DW and squeeze out some impressive dps.

However, when I'm talking about progression main tanking, into new and unconquered content, I don't think dropping those talents is appropriate.

Keep in mind that dropping cruelty for impale has been shown to be a DPS increase unless you have some very odd gear/talent choices that are giving you incredibly low crit % on your yellow attacks, and cruelty isn't doing anything for your mitigation or avoidance. So it's likely that a 12/5/54 build (that picks up Impale, 5/5 Shield Spec, and still goes 2/5 Cruelty) would still be a better choice than going into cruelty, if you want to keep Shield Spec...if it's simply a choice between two DPS talents, Impale is a better DPS talent than Cruelty.

Beyond that, I think Shield Spec is by and large a pretty terrible "survivability" talent. Most fights that really stress your tank's survivability are fights where Block is an absolutely terrible gearing choice - Patchwerk Hateful tanking, Sartharion tanking w/3 drakes up, etc. These are places where the tank is taking big burst hits for upwards of 20k, and blocking is just not significant unless you're popping Shield Block...in which case your base block percentage is irrelevant anyway.

There are obviously a few exceptions - tanking adds on Sarth+3 drakes is a place where block percentage really shines. But most fights out there are really either not survivability tests, or they test your tank's ability to absorb enormous spikes in damage...in which case things like stam, armor, and avoidance absolutely dwarf the difference your block makes. While it's true that everything counts, some things don't count for very much.

As a result, I think it likely that 15/5/51 will remain the spec of choice for most raiding tanks, even while they are progressing. There are probably a few places where a 5/8/58 spec will be better for the utility of Safeguard or Improved Spell Reflect (if you're an offtank for a guild, I can think of *lots* of places where Safeguard would be good...of course you probably also spend a lot of time DPSing, and thus would prefer to have the DPS that impale/deep wounds provide), and maybe a spot or two where a 5/11/55 spec with Piercing Howl would shine.

But 15/5/51 hits almost all the mitigation talents for survival fights (and, I would say, all the ones that 'matter' in pure survival fights) and also appears to be the highest-DPS tanking build by a fair margin. That's really hard to beat.

[CKaz]

Also side not, dont try and tank the adds on Instructor with the DW build, i dunno if it was just bad luck, but our priests couldnt MC the adds if i had bleeds on them, even w/o attacking them, damage shield would put a deep wounds on them and wiped us 2 times till i asked for our pala tank to grab them and then it went smooth, so i dunno if it was just bad luck or the build, but ill look more into it.

This really is my only concern with the build, and I've been waiting to hear the prime time tanks chime in - is DW messing up pulls, as it's obviously a CC stopper. But it seems we're in a world where AoE tanking is generally more desirable, or an OT will grab it, and/or AoE damage is prevalent.

If all you do is tank, I would think dualspec might suggest a more typical solo MT boss beater w/o DW, and then one with more AoE grab w/DW.

At least if this proves to be an issue. I don't think simply removing your shield would work [still reflects on damage, doesn't mention shield is requried] if you even dared to do that on such pulls Did you TC and/or Shockwave too? That might have placed DW on the mobs as well.

[Lightmgl]

I dunno where the hate comes from for Vigilance. I can't think of a single other talent in the game that has the potential to give you 600-800tps for just one talent point from good DPSers.

Block is garbage aside from our cooldown. As I have said for years block needs to mitigate a percentage of the enemy's damage and not a flat value. As long as block is a fixed value it will be dwarfed as things hit you harder and harder. Vs a 12k hitter my passive block is something like 4% of my total mitigation. Each point of shield spec is a whopping .2% or something.

This is why I get so up in arms about DKs and their avoidance. Raw avoidance scales with monster damage, block does not.

[Angry Grimace]

I dunno where the hate comes from for Vigilance. I can't think of a single other talent in the game that has the potential to give you 600-800tps for just one talent point from good DPSers.

Block is garbage aside from our cooldown. As I have said for years block needs to mitigate a percentage of the enemy's damage and not a flat value. As long as block is a fixed value it will be dwarfed as things hit you harder and harder. Vs a 12k hitter my passive block is something like 4% of my total mitigation. Each point of shield spec is a whopping .2% or something.

This is why I get so up in arms about DKs and their avoidance. Raw avoidance scales with monster damage, block does not.

The reason is because for the most part, Prot Warriors have no problem achieving 30K threat leads on even full packs, and hundreds of thousands on bosses. Just not really relevant anymore.

If shield blocks mitigated percentage values of attacks, all tanks would be out of business in favor of block-capped Protadins.

[Tendo]

I specced back into Vigilance when I specced into Deep Wounds, and I rarely use it. If I drop aggro, for whatever reason then the DPS who pulls is just getting me a larger aggro lead on everyone else when I taunt the mob back.

I think I'm going to put that point into Cruelty (is that the crit one?) and just enjoy a bit more critting. Plus I've mapped out a DPS set based on Vene's guide and basing it all on critting/DW procs.

[Bramborough]

Bleh...I'm an idiot. Didn't realize I couldn't do this...left me without required points to go deeper into the Prot tree. So still sitting at 2/5 Cruelty; *that* idea didn't work, lol.

That said...I still dropped ConcBlow/Vigi; put the points into Shield Spec now sitting at 4/5.

I know lots of folks will probably critique this, but I'm happier with my block % now. And I just don't miss ConcBlow and Vigilance. Maybe later in raids I will bring them back.

Still looking for ways to up Crit% for more impale/DW effect. Have put the +26Agi enchant on my weapon, which has helped; the increases in armor & dodge are small but still nice add'l bonuses.

Separate-but-related point re DW; others have pointed out that it really helps out slower weapons. I can vouch for this...recently had the 2.60 Infantry Assault Blade (130dps) drop in h-UP; I was using the 1.60 Eternal Folding Blade (120dps) before. The base DPS isn't that much higher, but with the slower weapon, DeepWounds has been doing far more damage; jumped from 5% to about 10% of my overall damage, and now outranks Damage Shield in Recount.

Missed Conc Blow more than I thought I would. I may not have used it that often...but when I needed it, I needed it. After yet another respec tweak it's back in my toolkit...and I'm making a conscious effort now to use it more often than I formerly did.

Still wanted the full 5/5 shield spec as well, so in fact I've gone now in a totally opposite direction...still dropped Vigilance (and I don't miss it one bit), and also gave up worrying about Cruelty points toward base crit%; transferred those points to Shield Spec. With HS/SS/Dev all critting over 20%, I haven't seen a significant drop in Deep Wounds proc or percentage of overall DPS, even though my base crit% is anemic.

So...that was 55gold spent in some fairly minor spec tweaking, to learn lessons that should have been obvious enough already. But what the heck, the gold comes pretty easy in Northrend.

[Tendo]

Missed Conc Blow more than I thought I would. I may not have used it that often...but when I needed it, I needed it. After yet another respec tweak it's back in my toolkit...and I'm making a conscious effort now to use it more often than I formerly did.

Still wanted the full 5/5 shield spec as well, so in fact I've gone now in a totally opposite direction...still dropped Vigilance (and I don't miss it one bit), and also gave up worrying about Cruelty points toward base crit%; transferred those points to Shield Spec. With HS/SS/Dev all critting over 20%, I haven't seen a significant drop in Deep Wounds proc or percentage of overall DPS, even though my base crit% is anemic.

So...that was 55gold spent in some fairly minor spec tweaking, to learn lessons that should have been obvious enough already. But what the heck, the gold comes pretty easy in Northrend.

See, I'm contemplating the same thing, only I am still worrying about Cruelty points. Is there any math to compare 3/5 Cruelty 2/5 Shield Spec with 2/5 Cruelty 3/5 Shield?

Forgive me for not doing it myself, I'm still easing my way into theorycrafting. But even real world circumstantial evidence would help me decide.

[Angry Grimace]

The only time I even recall needed Vigilance at all is on Elder Nadox in Heroic Ahn'Kahet.

[TomHuxley]

If the OP is anything like me, the concern over losing Puncture is less about a DPS tradeoff then it is about what happens in low rage situations; devestate was a great move to do for cheap when you were rage-starved. I specced into Impale/DW a couple weeks ago, and there certainly was a change in running dailies; I have to be more careful to "dress down" so I get enough rage from being pounded on so lightly. That said, it only took a day or two to get the right mixture for my grinding/over-geared-content outfit, and the DPS/threat boost from the new spec is fantastic.

True story: in Heroic Gundrak a couple days ago we were trying to kill the first boss for the third time (we had no ranged DPS and one was a bit underpowered) and were doing quite well until 20% when we lost our DPS guarding the healer, and suddenly it was me and a feral druid; I popped my CDs, she (the druid) died at 5% and I still had 50% of my HP, but before I could kill him I got cocooned and died...except that he had DW ticking on him, and he died from the DOT moments before I died (still in the cocoon).

A fairly unusual example, but clearly would have been a wipe without going with the Impale/DW

[Bramborough]

A fairly unusual example, but clearly would have been a wipe without going with the Impale/DW

Not to quibble...but it *was* a wipe. It's just that the boss wiped with you ftw.

Seems like every time my PUG manages to finish the HoS dwarf fight, it's the same thing...me at 2% health all by myself with 4 dead party members and 15 ill-tempered dwarves stacked around me, and kicking the bucket just as Brann finally finishes whatever the heck he's doing at the other end of the room and the event completes.

[Sporr]

I tried the deep wounds, didn't care for it. Switched to Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, as well as switching out for the the -5 cleave glyph.

My dps jumped from 950ish in 5mans to well over 1100. That being said my crit rating was crap, so I'm sure that was part of it, but I feel a lot more in control of groups of 4 mobs when I can cleave for 2k to the mob I'm not targeting.

[Angry Grimace]

If the OP is anything like me, the concern over losing Puncture is less about a DPS tradeoff then it is about what happens in low rage situations; devestate was a great move to do for cheap when you were rage-starved. I specced into Impale/DW a couple weeks ago, and there certainly was a change in running dailies; I have to be more careful to "dress down" so I get enough rage from being pounded on so lightly. That said, it only took a day or two to get the right mixture for my grinding/over-geared-content outfit, and the DPS/threat boost from the new spec is fantastic.

True story: in Heroic Gundrak a couple days ago we were trying to kill the first boss for the third time (we had no ranged DPS and one was a bit underpowered) and were doing quite well until 20% when we lost our DPS guarding the healer, and suddenly it was me and a feral druid; I popped my CDs, she (the druid) died at 5% and I still had 50% of my HP, but before I could kill him I got cocooned and died...except that he had DW ticking on him, and he died from the DOT moments before I died (still in the cocoon).

A fairly unusual example, but clearly would have been a wipe without going with the Impale/DW

The one thing that I find that makes up for the loss of Puncture (which was so relevant in 2.4.3 tanking) is that Focused Rage reduces rage cost on everything at the same time. I tried to spec into DW without rage reducing talents (so I could go with shield specialization or whatever it's called in T1), but found myself rage-starved, and upon a respec, not missing the block at all. Honestly, Glyph of Blocking is a better way to increase the number of successful blocks.

[Lightmgl]

The reason is because for the most part, Prot Warriors have no problem achieving 30K threat leads on even full packs, and hundreds of thousands on bosses. Just not really relevant anymore.

If shield blocks mitigated percentage values of attacks, all tanks would be out of business in favor of block-capped Protadins.

That changes real fast in full 25 man gear. You get people doing 6k- 7k dps in some of these fights shrinking the threat window. Apply that to fights like Malygos where the DPS are also getting damage boosts and I'm really thankful for any threat boost I can get. I bounce between 5500 and 7500 tps usually and it is barely enough in some of these cases. My AoE threat is not good enough to hold aggro off a howling blast DK or a really powerful Blizzard for a long period of time nor can it even come close to the 3 other tanks who can easily double my AoE TPS in situations with more than 5 mobs. Vigilance is one of the best aoe threat talents I have too. 1 talent point for 300-400 aoe tps if I put it on the right person.

This is also why giving up something like .6% of my total mitigation for deep wounds and impale is an easy choice. Not to mention the slight boost to personal DPS makes things that much faster. It is a total raid based talent though. We completely rely on crit buffs to counter our low crit rate to make this stuff effective.

Mmm and you're right about the shield block stuff. I dunno how to alter it then because right now it completely pales in comparison to an avoidance advantage which DKs get. They could also just go and make shield blocking a 100% deal but I guess that would throw pvp out of whack. They're in between a rock and a hard place, they may just have to throw DKs an avoidance nerf and find new ways to make non raiding DKs more solid. At least they have threat problems, ours can't even hope to hold aggro in some of these fights even with ToTT/MD spam against the solid dpsers.

Pre full 25 man gear none of this is an issue. These are extreme cases but it already shows where the scaling may not be powerful enough. If I'm stretched to my limit to hold aoe threat now am I really going to scale enough when our DPS gains another 20%? Ditto single target though it is less of a problem unless you are a DK where you are already screwed.