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Thread: Deep wounds and impale, but at what price?

  1. #1
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    Deep wounds and impale, but at what price?

    Hey all, quick question. I was checking out Cider's post on the main page about the new deep wounds/impale build, and I like the look of it, except for the 3 points taken from the talent that reduces the cost of devistate by 3 rage.
    Has anyone that has some experience with this new build seen a decrease in threat from this talent being taken out, or will the increase in damage done make up for it?

    Thanks
    Playing a warrior tank well is its own reward.

  2. #2
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    No one has an answer for this question? I'd settle for a smart remark even at this point
    Playing a warrior tank well is its own reward.

  3. #3
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    Deep Wounds and Impale result in much more damage, so it follows that they cause more threat.
    On top of that, Devastate isn't used nearly as much as it used to be because of Revenge and Sword and Board procs.

  4. #4
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    I'm doing just fine with my Deep Wounds + Impale build. Pulled down just over 2600 dps on Patchwerk Tuesday night.

  5. #5
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    Since SnB, Puncture is probably the least effective threat/dps talent after Imp. Bloodrage.

  6. #6
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    I've just spec'd Impale/DW today and given it a small workout in Molten Core (Geddon and Garr). First impressions are:

    Impale rocks. My goodness, crits are hitting really hard now. I've lost 3 points in Cruelty which brings me down to 8.9% base crit, but I was still critting fairly often. 10.5k shield slam was the biggest I saw with shield block+glyph and 1150 base SBV.

    Deep Wounds is ticking for very small amounts.... like 56... I'm using a fast weapon (Last Laugh) but I was expecting more damage than that. Will see how it goes when I have some more time to test it out.

    The nice thing is, I didn't drop too much to get to Impale. Just a few points in Cruelty, Imp. Spell Reflect and Imp. Revenge. All nice to have but not game-breaking.

  7. #7
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    With the decrease of the importance of devastate, I don't think you'll notice any difference.

    The point of a more DPS-intensive build being that our natural tanking stats are quite high to begin with, especially with gear, and TPS is a non issue. I don't think I've seen DPS come close to 1/2 of my TPS on single targets in 10-mans and heroics, and I have never once since 80 put a point into puncture. I just felt that the points were better spent elsewhere (Like Deep Wounds :P)
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  8. #8
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    At first I was pretty skeptical about it, given how low my crit rate was. I find myself being rage starved in heroics at times (lots of tab-devastates on groups), but man does it ever make a difference in raids. My DPS went up significantly.
    "To a Gnome, all avoidance is dodge."
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  9. #9
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    I've been using it since it caught wind because it was the best threat for me at no cost. You don't need puncture it is an awful talent. Devastate is hardly even used anymore beyond the initial stacking too. They should revise a couple of those powers now. You can't compare a 3 point talent thats -3 to all abilities to one that is -3 to a single ability (well two I suppose but if you have it you're not using one most likely). Theres still plenty of prot flaws! Alot of the prot warriors I talk to feel it is really annoying to have to spec so far up Arms and take it over mitigation talents because there is nothing else that can compete.

  10. #10
    I switched to an impale build a couple weeks ago and have liked it. After seeing the article, thought I would give the Deep Wound a try. Have matched exactly the "everyday" talent tree. Am not usually quite such a copycat, but I've grown to trust the good stuff I see on this site, and thought I would give it a try.

    I try to play my tank warrior well, but I have to admit that I'm not one to crunch numbers a trememdous amount or pore over details in combat logs. I kinda go by "feel". Initially, I've been less than impressed by the Deep Wounds variant. The Impale/Deep Wounds build is constructed around Crit%....yet I find Crit % gimped by less than 5/5 Cruelty. This seems counterintuitive, to prioritize Arms points toward increasing crit damage while not doing much to improve crit %.

    I don't particularly like 2/5 Shield specialization, as this has cut my Block% down to just less than 13% where I enjoyed almost 16% before. This also seems a pretty significant price.

    So, I had just about talked myself into junking Deep Wounds and putting those points back into Shield Spec. But....Recount isn't really letting me do that with a clear conscience. DW *is* adding a good 6% to overall DPS...nearly 10% to pure white melee damage. I'm not quite ready to give that up.

    Instead, I think what I'm going to do is drop Vigilance and Conc Blow, and put those two points into Cruelty. I know this is going to seem suboptimal to many...but then the point of this whole build goes rather against conventional wisdom anyway.

    As Cider has pointed out elsewhere, I just don't find Vigilance doing that much for me. Frankly, I forget to put it on folks half the time anyway, and I gotta say I just don't have threat problems too much as long as the party is following kill order and using AOE intelligently. When this happens, I don't need Vigi. When it doesn't...Vigi isn't helping much.

    As far as Conc Blow goes, I just don't use it much. Yes, I know the stun can come in handy. And yes, I know the threat is increased from BC days and it's a useful threat-building tool. And yes, I know it's another way to interrupt a caster. But the fact remains...I just don't use it often. Maybe that's a gap in my technique, but right now it's an underutilized (almost non-utilized) keybind on my action bar. I'm going to try skipping it for now.

    I'm going to try using these points in Cruelty in order to get more out of Impale/Deep Wounds. Might not be happy with it. Might junk the whole build and go back to something a little more standard (at least from an old-school viewpoint). But, at least for now, the experiment continues.

  11. #11
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    Don't discount the value added to crit by talents, which is 15% to each for 3 talent points. So if you're running at 10% crit normally you're really at 25%. Keeping heroic strike up almost all of the time (on bosses) shouldn't really be too much trouble.

    As for shield spec, i've always been kinda meh over it. Dropping a couple points in it for DW is something i'm more than okay with when survivability isn't an issue.

  12. #12
    I personally love this build, it helps keep my avg tps high with less spikes, before i would get a crit and my tps would spike, 2 seconds later i would be low again till i crit once more.

    With the DW build your keeping that crit rolling for a longer time frame adding more over all tps. This also gives you a larger time frame to crit again causing a rolling effect on DW.

    The 56 damage you see on 1 crit is about all your gonna get, mostly from a damage shield crit, but ive had strings of crits get my dw rolling around 600 a tick, which think is phenominal. Thaddius though, wow, 1.1k rolling bleeds with little or no effort. Normally i dont ask our dps to tell me what i was doing on fights cuz honestly so long as the boss is stuck to me like glue i couldnt care, but lately, just to see how bad some dps are, i ask for numbers, on most of the tank and spank fights im going around 2.4 to 2.9k dps while trial dps is bearly getting 3k. We are now basing alot of apps off how close the tank is getting to you, and we give slack for gear. But if your not worring about a boss trying to kill you, your numbers should be higher.


    Also side not, dont try and tank the adds on Instructor with the DW build, i dunno if it was just bad luck, but our priests couldnt MC the adds if i had bleeds on them, even w/o attacking them, damage shield would put a deep wounds on them and wiped us 2 times till i asked for our pala tank to grab them and then it went smooth, so i dunno if it was just bad luck or the build, but ill look more into it.

  13. #13
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    In some fights (pretty much all of them) I have had Deep Wounds do more damage than Devastate. So yes, it is worth losing Puncture.
    Last edited by Rak; 12-26-2008 at 03:31 AM.
    "We actually talked today about adding an item level 300 shirt that did absolutely nothing but mess with mods that attempt to boil down players to gear scores. " -Ghostcrawler

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramborough View Post
    So, I had just about talked myself into junking Deep Wounds and putting those points back into Shield Spec. But....Recount isn't really letting me do that with a clear conscience. DW *is* adding a good 6% to overall DPS...nearly 10% to pure white melee damage. I'm not quite ready to give that up.

    Instead, I think what I'm going to do is drop Vigilance and Conc Blow, and put those two points into Cruelty. I know this is going to seem suboptimal to many...but then the point of this whole build goes rather against conventional wisdom anyway.

    As Cider has pointed out elsewhere, I just don't find Vigilance doing that much for me. Frankly, I forget to put it on folks half the time anyway, and I gotta say I just don't have threat problems too much as long as the party is following kill order and using AOE intelligently. When this happens, I don't need Vigi. When it doesn't...Vigi isn't helping much.

    As far as Conc Blow goes, I just don't use it much. Yes, I know the stun can come in handy. And yes, I know the threat is increased from BC days and it's a useful threat-building tool. And yes, I know it's another way to interrupt a caster. But the fact remains...I just don't use it often. Maybe that's a gap in my technique, but right now it's an underutilized (almost non-utilized) keybind on my action bar. I'm going to try skipping it for now.

    I'm going to try using these points in Cruelty in order to get more out of Impale/Deep Wounds. Might not be happy with it. Might junk the whole build and go back to something a little more standard (at least from an old-school viewpoint). But, at least for now, the experiment continues.
    I myself am in the same boat. I never trianed myself to use Concussion Blow, and never remember Vigilance. Please let us know how this works out for you, as I may be doing the same thing too soon.

  15. #15
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    I've pretty much been using the 15/5/51 build since I hit 80. It particularly shines when fully raid buffed but is also good in 5 mans. Yes - I use 5/5 cruelty but really don't think it's a big deal where you go 3/3 armored to the teeth and 2/5 cruelty.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tendo View Post
    I myself am in the same boat. I never trianed myself to use Concussion Blow, and never remember Vigilance. Please let us know how this works out for you, as I may be doing the same thing too soon.
    I find myself using every "stun" i have on CD in most heroics and raids. If not to stop a caster from casting or a bug from stinging or one thing or another. Not sure your doing your raid/group justice by dropping those from rotation or not using them at all.

    BUT i guess entire raids can simply outgear everything as it stands now.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Bramborough View Post
    I think what I'm going to do is drop Vigilance and Conc Blow, and put those two points into Cruelty.
    Bleh...I'm an idiot. Didn't realize I couldn't do this...left me without required points to go deeper into the Prot tree. So still sitting at 2/5 Cruelty; *that* idea didn't work, lol.

    That said...I still dropped ConcBlow/Vigi; put the points into Shield Spec now sitting at 4/5.

    I know lots of folks will probably critique this, but I'm happier with my block % now. And I just don't miss ConcBlow and Vigilance. Maybe later in raids I will bring them back.

    Still looking for ways to up Crit% for more impale/DW effect. Have put the +26Agi enchant on my weapon, which has helped; the increases in armor & dodge are small but still nice add'l bonuses.

    Separate-but-related point re DW; others have pointed out that it really helps out slower weapons. I can vouch for this...recently had the 2.60 Infantry Assault Blade (130dps) drop in h-UP; I was using the 1.60 Eternal Folding Blade (120dps) before. The base DPS isn't that much higher, but with the slower weapon, DeepWounds has been doing far more damage; jumped from 5% to about 10% of my overall damage, and now outranks Damage Shield in Recount.

  18. #18
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    Honestly, if you're worried about taking the 3 points out of Puncture - seriously don't sweat it!

    I run a 5/8/58 build with no Puncture, make a living as the OT most of the time (so am not always absolutely swimming in rage) and I haven't noticed much of a change since I dropped it (was reluctant to get rid of it at first). I think it's more a mental state, you think you need it more than you actually do

    Good luck.
    Drowning in Worldie's QQ.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramborough View Post
    Bleh...I'm an idiot. Didn't realize I couldn't do this...left me without required points to go deeper into the Prot tree. So still sitting at 2/5 Cruelty; *that* idea didn't work, lol.

    That said...I still dropped ConcBlow/Vigi; put the points into Shield Spec now sitting at 4/5.

    I know lots of folks will probably critique this, but I'm happier with my block % now. And I just don't miss ConcBlow and Vigilance. Maybe later in raids I will bring them back.
    Vigilance I can definitely see not taking...but conc blow?! This is not acceptable behavior!

  20. #20
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    This is how I feel, and I'm talking about min/maxing...

    I'm partial to a 7/8/56 build, with 2 floating points (currently in imp. charge for the instant shield slam after every charge). I feel that as a MT in progression content, I would be doing myself and my guild a disservice by not maxing shield spec, anticipation, and other talents that you all subtract to add impale/dw. I just cannot sacrifice the potential mitigation/avoidance for the additional threat and damage.

    With the current level of content, I understand why people are ok with it. With upper level gear, its easily appropriate to drop some prot talents or not max cruelty for impale/DW and squeeze out some impressive dps.

    However, when I'm talking about progression main tanking, into new and unconquered content, I don't think dropping those talents is appropriate. Everything counts when you're the one your guild is counting on to survive.

    The only argument left is that our job is to dps now too, not just soak damage. The only time I would find it appropriate as a main tank, again, is if in your new content you are pushing an enrage timer or something.

    To answer the OP, I think its purely situational and as a main tank your job is to know what situation calls for what tools. I can tell you for sure my dual specs will include a pure mitigation spec (current spec) and then a threat/dps tank spec, with impale and DW.

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