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Thread: How bad do I suck?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    East Texas

    How bad do I suck?

    No so very long ago, I decided to roll up a healer, to give me a new angle on raiding. Not that I do / did not love tanking, but because I like to experience all aspects of a raid, and DPS... eh, lets stick with the subject at hand. So I level grind my new little paladin all the way up to 80, gear him through regular instance, Black Smithy made items,and begin hording emblems to make the final tweaks before I rejoined the world of raiding.

    So here I am, still questioning my own abilities because healing just ins't tanking, and tanking is second nature to me, when a tank (I'll leave out his name) in H-UK shows me exactly how bad some of the newly leveled tanks can be, then turns to me in the middle of the run, and says that I am the entire reason that the group sucks, and promptly give the boot (NOTE: This post is not a whinefest, just bare with me).

    So as I jog toward the entrance, trying to beat the timer so that my HStone is not wasted, I begin to reflect over my time learning to tank... the hours of reading posts here and other sites. The weeks of number crunching and spec tweaking. The hundreds of tanking videos for each boss. On and on and on. When compared to the time I've spent training up for healing, I start to think that I really may have been the problem with that run. I have spent maybe 15minutes reading over some blogs on healing, glanced at an EJ spec, and poked around in some gearing lists. Is healing really as complicated as tanking? or are we just 2-3button spamming monkeys who either have rhythm and therefore are good, or lack the groovy beat, and therefore suck? What defines a good healer? I'm open to any critique and comments.

    Armory Link:
    Llew of Staghelm
    Last edited by Silatan; 01-04-2009 at 01:50 PM. Reason: Grammar and spelling tweaks
    Silatan - 85 Warrior Tank - WoW
    Silatan - 34 Cleric Tank - Rift

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    if you can tank, you can heal. healing = easymode, all it requires is a little know how and knowing when some one will take damage. if you tanked before, you know when people will take damage. meaning you know whats going on

    edit: your gear looks good to, honestly it probably was the tank knowing tanks now adays. however, if its a recurring issue then start to look into what you may be doing wrong. don't call your self out after 1 bad experiance.

  3. #3
    Healing is an experience/ awareness thing, knowing what pulls require the big heals with mana ect. I mean sure you can theory craft out how much hps you can do with given items but in the end if your not oom and the tanks not dead it's all good.
    But on the other side if the tank is bad/ under geared they may not be able to survive long enough for any amount of healing or healer skill to make a bit of difference.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    I've had similar experiences where people will try to claim that it's the healer's fault, when in reality it's because the tank is undergeared or isn't pulling off of the right people, or the dps is pulling threat or making some sort of other mistake.. a lot of people don't really know healers too well so the first thing they will typically go to blame is the healer when they die.

    Now, for holy paladins, you are in this case a 3 button healer, seeing as we only get 3 heals. Not to say that we don't have our nuances just like other healers, but I think that paladins are a bit easier than, say, priests or druids with all the various heals they have compared to a paladin. A lot of that just takes practice and a bit of tinkering when it comes to effectively healing, because paladins do have it a bit harder compared to other healers in that we don't get a true aoe heal, especially since more fights are aoe intensive.

    Now, looking at your gear, since you did link that, your gear isn't bad. I would suggest changing out that libram for the badge one, either the one from Outlands or the new one from WoLK. The only other things I would eventually work on are your rep with Argent Crusade, so that you can get the Helm of Purified Thoughts. (Yes, I know that the one you have now has a ton of spell power, crit, and mana per 5, but it lacks intellect, which is a very valuable stat for healers, and right now it also lacks gem sockets, particularly a meta, which you will want to get the 21 int and restore mana on spellcast chance meta). I'd also advise getting some of your other gear enchanted--such as getting the 25 int to shield enchant, something like the +8 to all stats to chest or 8 mp5 to chest enchant, and the spellpower enchants to your gloves and your wrist, for starters (most if not all of your gear could use some enchanting to boost you up some, it is good that you have your weapon enchanted, though).

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    I dont believe healing is easy. I know awesome healers who put in a ton of research just as you (and I) have done for tanking. And I know healers that dont. Interestingly, runs with the former go amazingly well. You cant quit nail it, but they are fast, successful, and everyone has a good time.

    I'm not saying you're a bad healer. But what is true, is that if you are good at one thing, its natural to assume you'd be good at everything (a totally irrational conclusion). The reason you're good at that one thing is that you worked really hard to be good. I'm not saying you have to do it all over again from scratch. But if the game was really hard for tanks, and super easy for everyone else.... I think we would have heard some complaints on the forums by now.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Healing is about learning how hard you can be pushed to your limits, so that when your not there, your job is as easy as it can get.

    Currently, healing is very easy on every encounter in the game so its probably not you. I cant talk on paladins behalf because im a disc raiding priest, but our playstyle is alot alike.

    As long as your spellpower is up to par you can perform just the same as any other healer in 5 mans. Raiding is a bit different obviously because of the throughput needed to maintain that viability. But my guess is it was the tanks fault.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    I have a holy paladin, and I think that they are the hardest healing class there is, mainly because we don't have any true aoe or any heal over times. Yes we are 3-button healers, but we have a lot of abilities to help our healing and we need to know when best to use them.

    As a former/current tank you know all the fights and you know when you will need to use bigger heals and when you'll need to conserve mana so this will show you when you need to use your abilities.

    In the particular case you told us about, I do not believe it was your fault at all. You're gear looks good. As a healer you can really tell how good a tank is, when you are constantly healing and they are still dying, and all the other dps are dying, its most likely the tanks fault.

    So no I don't think you're a bad healer, I just think you need to be with a good tank, because being a holy pally you can't heal the whole group very well so you need the tank to keep agro. The only thing I could suggest, is getting a few better gems.

  8. #8
    Run with an addon simular to recount.

    Was on my priest the other day, got into a heroic 2min after I dinged 80 and kept grp waiting while going to respec and train Some would say so newly dinged healer wouldn't belong in heroics, but mind you I was healing pugs in HoL while I was lvl75.

    Strangely, I was actually having some mana problems, maybe too newly dinged ?, I had to drink after every pull. Until I started looking at recount. Warrior tank never ever used cleave/hs, his SS was only his third highest dps ability (white hits being on top) and rarely thunderclapped. DK dps and a rogue were pulling aggro left and right. Checking "dmg taken" I saw the tank was only third... Still wanna blame the newly dinged nooby priest with 14khp buffed ?

    These are the things that usually go by un-noticed by anyone not looking for them, and when you don't notice these things, the only explanation you come to is "healer must suck".

    If you only heal tank and yourself in a non-aoe situation and dps starts to die, how can it be your fault ?

    Long ago I made a rule that used to save wipes back in kara days (priest only an alt), if things go messy, just heal tank and yourself. Cause as soon as you target a dps, either tank dies, or dps dies anyway and you've lost a gcd.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Your mp5 is too low for heroics. The best fix is to wear mana regen trinkets instead of your spell power one. Also get a helm with a meta socket. The mana regen meta gives 30-50mp5 and the best for any healer. Your primary focus on heals should be keeping your shield up to give 50% extra crit off your flash to conserve mana. When I started running heroics I was pushing 300 mp5. Paladins can get away with a little less.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    There are three ways to gear pallys though, stack crit, stack mp/5, or balance. I know plenty of pallys with under 100 mp/5 that raid at an end-game level, so thats not his problem.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Cadran View Post
    Your mp5 is too low for heroics. The best fix is to wear mana regen trinkets instead of your spell power one. Also get a helm with a meta socket. The mana regen meta gives 30-50mp5 and the best for any healer. Your primary focus on heals should be keeping your shield up to give 50% extra crit off your flash to conserve mana. When I started running heroics I was pushing 300 mp5. Paladins can get away with a little less.
    Our guilds best pala healers aim for ~120-150mp5 unbuffed, more = wasted stats. Instead they spec for crit and stack it like maniacs. 45-47% crit chance buffed and they never go oom. Too much mp5 instead of crit and you don't last longer, you just heal less. Cause crit does give you mana back Also since people are rarely taking big dmg spikes in heroics, a regularly critting fol reduces the need for hl by lots. Saving even more

    Crit spec
    Don't worry too much about Kings. It's only the tank using it anyways and he benefits from Might too Could even move points from Imp Judgements to Imp Might.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    I would advise against changing your spec in order to get imp might. Contrary to the previous poster, I have never seen a single tank that will opt to lose out on 10% increases to stamina, strength, and agility just to get a little bit extra attack power. In fact, that would be incredibly stupid to lose out on those bonuses, since having more stamina, strength, and agility gives so much more to their health pool, armor, block value, so on and so on.

    Also, in regards to the low mana per 5-- if you do get truly concerned about having low regen you can build up a mp5 set, which I have built up on my paladin, but I have found that you can get away with having less mp5, especially with the advent of Divine Plea, plus you should be having your points in Imp Blessing of Wisdom anyway and always have that up on yourself, and that generally is sufficient. Otherwise, you are fine when it comes to heroics.

    Also, good deal on getting that libram, it'll really help when it comes to mana regen And good luck getting that Argent Crusade rep to exalted, it's a long road but believe me, that helm is worth it, as well as the ring.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbid View Post
    Don't worry too much about Kings. It's only the tank using it anyways and he benefits from Might too Could even move points from Imp Judgements to Imp Might.
    Do not listen to this guy. Kings is a primary tank buff. Improved health, improved armor, improved dodge, improved block value, improved AP > more AP for almost any tank in the game. Being a tank is about surviving, increased AP doesn't make you live longer, Kings does. With that said, your spec is fine for heroics. Get a couple of healing based addons like healbot or visual heal and just become more aware of the health bars of your party and you will do fine.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Your gear looks decent for a fresh level 80 re-roll. I do however see an emphasis on MP-5 in your gear which is a flawed strategy if you plan to raid. With current game mechanics Intellect is the best stat for paladins to stack. It is the only stat that scales with both replenishment and Divine plea. It also gives you crit, which in turn increases your throughput and longevity.

    As far as spec go, the standard 51/0/20 seems to be the raiding spec that people follow. This is because of the 8% spell crit that Ret talents grant (Might get nerfed in future). Haste is a bad stat for paladins simply because of Infusion of light and judgement of the pure. Also with a balanced raid, you will have a moonkin and an ele shammy in raid.

    As far as the ease of playing as a healer compared to a tank? Well, I think to be a good healer, you need to be a good raider first and foremost. The real challenge in healing comes when you count your reaction time towards the events of the current encounter, to that of your heals landing at correct spots. Good healers don't die to stupid stuff, but they also prevent deaths from such behavior from others. Some good things to practice are:

    - Fast dispelling
    - Your judgement up time
    - Proper use of holy shock
    - Delivering the first heal to say an ice-blocked target on KT.
    - Getting a feel for when to use Freedom/Sacrifice.
    - If your raid leader does not have a clue, then using beacon wisely.

    Unless nerfed, you are playing the best healing class in game currently and for this expansion. A properly played holy pally is amazing to watch (Watch the method vs Sartharion 3D 10 man video).

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    The one thing I wish my Priest could heal is other people's stupidity.

    There are three types of variables in combat: things you control through playing your character, things your allies control through their characters, and things that the game controls. Reacting to what the game controls is relatively simple because there are so many constraints, and any given encounter is mostly non-changing. Preparation and/or experience are all you need to form effective strategies for dealing with what the game throws at you. Reacting to the actions of your allies is much less predictable, and therefore a greater challenge.

    DPS have a simple objective in combat - target, fire. They mostly interact with the variables the game controls, and they thrive on raw throughput. Challenges are going to be caused by the environment and are therefor predictable. When you're done moving out of the fire you go right back to your standard rotation. Target, fire.

    Tanks have a dual objective - stay alive, stay a target. The challenge of a tank is that those two goals are opposed. Luckily, staying alive is a burden tanks share with their healers. Like DPS, tanks mostly interact with the game and always benefit from more throughput. The only relevant variable under the control of a tank's allies is aggro gain.

    Healers have a vague objective best described as keeping the group alive. Like the other two roles, healers have to interact with the game environment and predicting incoming damage is a large part of playing a healer. Timing your throughput is more important than raw numbers. What separates healers from the other roles is that the actions of other players have an enormous impact on how you heal. You can prepare for Hateful Strikes on Patchwerk and heal accordingly, but how do you prepare for somebody standing in a void zone?

    With communication.

    Healers have a different vantage point when watching combat unfold. Generally if somebody is going to notice a problem it will be the player who made the mistake or the person healing them. This is why some of the best raid leaders I've had the pleasure to run with have been healers. Now it's not good communication to berate a player for making a mistake. You have to handle every mistake as a learning experience and give players the opportunity to be taught. The good ones will listen. The bad ones... well I've already said there's no cure for stupid. If you can't give them a swift kick in the ass, a swift kick out of group will do.

    So to answer your question, you suck at WoW if you can't prepare yourself properly for static content. I doubt that's the case since you seem to prepare yourself well. So if you suck at healing, it's because you suck at managing your group.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Faction View Post

    As far as spec go, the standard 51/0/20 seems to be the raiding spec that people follow. This is because of the 8% spell crit that Ret talents grant (Might get nerfed in future). Haste is a bad stat for paladins simply because of Infusion of light and judgement of the pure.
    I'd disagree that 51/0/20 is THE raiding spec when it comes to paladin healing. Another way to go is also to go down prot, especially if you don't have a lot of mana issues, which I have been having less and less of. Imp Dev Aura is very nice if there aren't any prot pallies or to cover in the off chance that you don't have a druid healer (we've had a few runs without a druid healer in our runs). Also having the Divine Shield absorb 30% of everyone's damage that they take for the 12 secs it's up has saved us from wipes more than once.

    And haste being a useless stat for a holy pally? Wrong! Even with Infusion of Light, even with Judgements of the Pure, instant heals can't take the place of a full blown Holy Light when it's needed, and haste helps so much with making that cast that much faster. And haste isn't that hard to get, it comes naturally on a lot of gear pieces nowadays.
    Last edited by qygibo; 01-06-2009 at 06:05 PM.

  17. #17
    Hi guys!

    New to Tankspot, but I love the site, great job. Anyway, I've been a Holy Palidan now since turning 80 (couple of months now) and have been practicing a lot. What I've been doing is running groups in Reg mode just to learn the instance and to get the experience of healing. It's also a good way to learn how different people play.

    In my experience now, the healer is like the goalie, but without a good team in front it doesn't matter how good you are. I find what makes a good healer is a good tank (in most cases). The other day I ran a group through Nax. I new I was in trouble when my tank who was lvl 70 (just turned that day) had 9500 health. I thought well this should be fun. Sure enough I kept losing my tank in some of the boss battles (2 hits and down). Now the advantage of being a healer wearing plate, once I lost my tank, I pulled out my mace and became the tank while I healed (ended up soloing the dragon at the end). Of course the "tank" was blaming me, saying I'm a bad healer (the rest of the group though I was great, I got them through it). When I did recount, I was top DPS and in Damage, the tank was last.

    Sometimes you have to watch the group your in and don't get down on yourself from a couple of people who think they know all. A bad group or bad couple of people will make the healer look and feel bad.

    Just my though anway

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Kuna, Idaho
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreg View Post
    honestly it probably was the tank knowing tanks now adays.
    ... sigh

    To the OP, I think you'll eventually learn that healing is harder when things aren't going well anyway, just like tanking. I've seen pro healers barely able to keep the raid up when people are flailing around instead of playing smart, this is really a different flavor of the same old l2play problem.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Good Holy Paladins have to go well beyond '3 button healers.'

    Is the right judgement up - on the best target?
    Is BoL up? Do you move BoL around properly during multi-phase fights where the healing load changes?
    Is Sacred Shield on the right targets?
    Are you cleansing the important things?
    Are you using Hand of Freedom when necessary?
    Since 3.0, Lay On Hands is now a useful healing tool. Are you using it properly?
    Do you have a non-casting heal trinking that you use for fights where a unavoidable silence is common?
    When a mob slips away from the tank (and mobs will slip away from tanks) are you taunting it off the back row and moving it into the AE pile?

    I am sure many think these things are a 'given'; all paladins do them. But I see '3 button healer' paladins all the time. As long as the rest of the group is strong, they will do fine. But in groups that are weak, '3 buttons' will not cut it.

    As for Haste, I did not find it to be that useful pre-WotLK. But the pace of healing is different in WotLK and now I find it a very useful stat. Recently, I leveled up a second Holy Paladin (it helps the guild in Naxx-10 instance locking). My new paladin does not have nearly the gear of my main. Perhaps surprisingly, the stat I missed most was Haste. Without any judgements, FoLs from my main have about a 1.2-1.3 second cast time, while they have nearly 1.5 seconds on my new paladin. I found that made quite a difference in tight situations.

    - Milric

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    I played a shaman healer.

    Healing isn't easy or hard by default, it depends on a lot of things.

    In trivial content, which everyone outgears and knows by heart, healing is very easy. (I can still remember that it almost came down for me to casting earth shield on tank and type /follow and go afk, just to come back to renew ES at70 in some dungeons.

    In PuGs or content which your group has a hard time beating, the good healers will be set apart from the bad ones. That's where you can shine.

    (And btw, I love haste because not only does it make your spells faster but also lowers the Global Cooldown. And (fo me atleast) my biggest enemy for keeping people up in a hard fight was the global cooldown.)

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