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Thread: Protection Warrior -- Increase Your Damage

  1. #21
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    The thing I can't get over is the whole idea of leaving a DOT on everything I touch. I miss the concept of crowd control and feel uneasy about speccing in a way that brutalizes it.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonan View Post
    I do understand the push to gear for DPS as a tank as we now make an honest contribution but sacrificing some of the avoidance/survivability I will taking the "Everyday Spec" and re-gemming makes me a bit scared. For some background I will say we are quickly pushing through naxx (one week more than half clear with no previous experience) and am geared in a mix of badge/heroic/crafted epics and blues (damned crappy RNG in naxx). My current stats sit at:

    27.4k hp
    22.7k armor
    553 def
    37% Dodge/Parry combined
    16% Block with 907 BV

    If I go to the spec and regem I will drop to 13% block and probably 33-34% avoidance. Granted health and BV will go up but is taking the hit worth it at this stage? Especially to the Block %. That number just seems too damned small for my liking. It makes me feel inadaquate, LOL.

    As always interested to hear the communities thoughts.

    Sorry but how exactly are you losing avoidence? you will lose 3% block which honestly you probably won't notice if your spamming Sheild block on CD anyway for more Damage reduction and more TPS.

  3. #23
    My revenge crits for 4-5k dmg, which is almost what my ss crits for (I do think ss crits more often - maybe cuz i use it more often ) so I definently reccomend revenge. And on top of that it can stun, which is amazing in pvp eviroment/trash.

    Not to mention that with glyph of revenge it becomes simply too good to pass up, specially if you give another major for heroic strike - never run out of rage ever again :P

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Farothin View Post
    Question on imp revenge and vigilance

    For those of us still gearing up will my healer notice the extra spikyness possible from the lower chance to block of only having 2/5 shield spec?

    Also, while I'm still working on quests, grinding motes etc, will the lower block rate gimp my AOE grinding ability?

    ... is imp revenge really all that worth it? +20% for 2 talents on a single ability we use once every 5-6 seconds or less seems a little expensive. (especially if threat really is unimportant)
    My personal thoughts are that your healer won't notice the Spikyness of having 3% less block.

    as for AoE grinding you should make up for the 3% less block by all of the extra damage you will be doing by making the mobs bleed.

    As for imp revenge it is a really nice ability for trash/farming 50% chance to stun is amazing as for it being only 20% damage, I am not 100% positive but it should scale with AP also i know raid buffed i have around 4k AP and revenge hits REALLY hard.

  5. #25
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    I prefer to stick to the middle wai,where i improve everything at same time,buth ofc at a smaller rates,i could gem for pure stamina and get +/- 33k hp unbuffed,or 65%+ avoidance,hit/expertise capped,or sick ap/crit as a prot with my curent gear,buth i dont think its realy that necesary,with the wai how i prefer to gear up and gem my stuff,with all 10/25man content cleared,i realy havent felt that i have issues with any of potential problems that one tank might run in to.

  6. #26
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    Regemming and respeccing the way this article describes has put me from 1000-1100 to 1500-1600 dps in 5 mans, at the cost of 800hp, 2% block and 1% dodge.

    I will find out how it goes in raids tomorrow.

    Definately worth it.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    Instead, focus on your damage output.
    You may want to add that you're saying this for geared raid tanks. For a fresh 80 trying heroics (or even normal instances with, say, a level 77 healer), prioritizing damage over mitigation is not necessarily the optimal move.

    Feel Free To Uninstall Your Threat Meter...
    ...until Malygos, at least.
    I still have a threat meter running for heavy AE situations with reckless DPS. Also, it can be helpful in seeing whether a mob is retargeting because of a random secondary attack or because the mob has performed an aggro wipe.

  8. #28
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    I've tried out something similar to Cider's "everyday build" last night in Naxx25 and I must say I'm impressed with deep wounds. My spec was identical except for the 2 pts in cruelty that I put in improved spellreflect.

    At the beginning of the evening on Gothik and 4H I was using Red Sword of Courage (fast) and WWS reports deep wounds as 6% of my overall damage done on these fights. 4H dropped the Broken Promise (slow) which I picked up and equipped for the remaining fights (at first not realising that it was actually a slow weapon hehe). Then at Sapphrion and KT, WWS reports deep wounds as 10-11% ! of my damage done, more than Devastate in both cases (of course devastate still produces more threat due to its innate bonus threat).

    Overall you really don't lose much survivability from a spec like that, there simply aren't many survival talents left after you've put 51 pts into prot. That being said I would still recommend for fresh lvl80s while you're somewhat undergeared, to spec more defensively, take the full 5/5 shield spec and consider taking some points in improved demo shout (and use it!). A good tank knows which risks are worth taking and which aren't, this hasn't changed in the expansion

  9. #29
    Threat is still an issue...




    When MTing Patchwerk. You got 2 OT's who will be chasing you on threat and they need to do as much as possible. I have to restrain myself a fair bit when I'm soaking Hateful's.

  10. #30
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    I picked up 2/3 deep wounds last night for a 10 man naxx, and although i didn't get much time to test it, it really didn't feel like a significant increase in dps.

    That being said, it sounds like I have lower baseline crit than most people here, and I don't have 2/5 cruelty ( I specced 5/5 shield block, because I have low shield block rating).

    I'll try Ciders everyday build, probably moving vigiliance into 1 point into shield block.

  11. #31
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    Many of you have mentioned that you're not comfortable reducing "survivability". The 15-5-51 build does not reduce any of the survivability talents. One area I slightly vary from the recommended build is that I stick with 5/5 Shield Specialization and I do not have 3/3 focussed Rage. In order to make up for this, I've chosen to use the Devastate glyph instead of the HS glyph (I use: blocking, revenge, and devastate). I have zero rage issues solo, "trash", 5-man, 10-man, or 25 man.

    I've been running with the 15-5-51 build for three weeks now and it's a blast 5-man and every bit as viable to 25-man. If you armory me, you'll see that I'm at the 540 defense, 17% parry, 22% dodge, but where i really vary is 32% block.

    Old school thinking on "Block Value" is something I think needs to be re-visited. I think Critical Block is an AWESOME talent, and if you look at some of the iLvl 213 "tank" gear there is a LOT of gear with Shield Block on it. We can't spam our shield block ability like before, so I really think people need to value Block Rating more (oh btw, Critical Block talent = Shield Slam Crits increased by 15%...kind of lends itself to the 15-5-51)

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canariensis View Post
    Many of you have mentioned that you're not comfortable reducing "survivability". The 15-5-51 build does not reduce any of the survivability talents. One area I slightly vary from the recommended build is that I stick with 5/5 Shield Specialization and I do not have 3/3 focussed Rage. In order to make up for this, I've chosen to use the Devastate glyph instead of the HS glyph (I use: blocking, revenge, and devastate). I have zero rage issues solo, "trash", 5-man, 10-man, or 25 man.

    I've been running with the 15-5-51 build for three weeks now and it's a blast 5-man and every bit as viable to 25-man. If you armory me, you'll see that I'm at the 540 defense, 17% parry, 22% dodge, but where i really vary is 32% block.

    Old school thinking on "Block Rating" is something I think needs to be re-visited. I think Critical Block is an AWESOME talent, and if you look at some of the iLvl 213 "tank" gear there is a LOT of gear with Block Rating on it. We can't spam our shield block ability like before, so I really think people need to value Block Rating more (oh btw, Critical Block talent = Shield Slam Crits increased by 15%...kind of lends itself to the 15-5-51)

  13. #33
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    Roana, I found that for heavy aoe and chain pulling, the blizzard default threat warnings do a significantly better job than any other threat meter i've used.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farothin View Post
    For those of us still gearing up will my healer notice the extra spikyness possible from the lower chance to block of only having 2/5 shield spec?
    No, and here is why. If you time it right, the portion of time you are exposed to an actual block roll on trash is minimal. Shockwave and shield block will cover you for most of the time on trash pulls if you have good dps. Even when these abilities are used, lower block % isn't going to make you more spikey it is just going to make your mitigation less spikey. Healers tend to prepare to heal the general ammount of damage and blocks will often be caught in the overheal unless there is a large string of them which causes the healer to adapt. 2% will not change this too much. What is big is that improved revenge stun on trash, it is on the proced stun dr so it won't mess up your conc blow/shockwave dr and will reduce a lot of damage.

    What I am wondering is what those of us who leveled JC should do. The cost involved in putting dragons eye stamina gems in red slots is not small, with the market value for the gems being 400g per on my server. I am currently leaving the dragons eyes in my gear but will likely adjust my gemming strategy when I get upgrades. I think I might put expertise dragons eyes in yellow slots or if I want to be really crazy I could put offensive gems in blue slots.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canariensis View Post
    I've been running with the 15-5-51 build for three weeks now and it's a blast 5-man and every bit as viable to 25-man. If you armory me, you'll see that I'm at the 540 defense, 17% parry, 22% dodge, but where i really vary is 32% block.
    If I was in your level of gear I could totally see switching to the spec and re-gemming. My question really is at what level of gearing is this a good idea. Check out my armory, if you want, but I have done that math and I lose avoidance with the re-gemming and I will lose survivability (in the 3% block, block = survivability even on bosses.. mitagated damage is mitigated damage). It is never a question of whether this works but of, WHEN it works best.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonan View Post
    If I was in your level of gear I could totally see switching to the spec and re-gemming. My question really is at what level of gearing is this a good idea. Check out my armory, if you want, but I have done that math and I lose avoidance with the re-gemming and I will lose survivability (in the 3% block, block = survivability even on bosses.. mitagated damage is mitigated damage). It is never a question of whether this works but of, WHEN it works best.
    I was wearing Tempered Saronite (fully crafted tempered), when I made the switch.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canariensis View Post
    Many of you have mentioned that you're not comfortable reducing "survivability".The 15-5-51 build does not reduce any of the survivability talents.
    When I said that, I was not referring to the talent build, but rather the general statement to "instead, focus on your damage output" and advice related to that, such as gemming for expertise rather than avoidance. I fully understand where Ciderhelm is coming from, but I'm worried that too many tanks will just blindly take his statement as gospel without reflecting on it or adjusting it to their circumstances.

    There has been a worrying tendency in general since the release of WotLK by DPSers and tanks to dump responsibility for success on the healers. Even if and when the healer is obviously very taxed by the content. You see damage dealers trying to pad their position on the damage meters by maximizing AEs rather than taking a dangerous mob out with focused fire; refusal to use CC even when the tank obviously can't take the hits or when random secondary attacks murder the healer (or other clothies); insisting on staying in in Loken and eating the Lightning Nova with the expectation that the level 78 holy paladin can easily heal through it even when it is clear that, combined with the not-too-hot DPS of the damage dealers, she can't.

    Obviously, there is no point in boring your healer, either. But letting healers pick up all the slack when they are anything but bored is ill-advised, in my opinion.

  18. #38
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    is this change worth it with a fast weapon... i am still using the red sword of courage

  19. #39
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    I do not agree with not gearing for survivability.

    The very fact that threat is easy to achieve right now and hold aggro means you should be gearing/gemming exclusively for more survivability - be it either stamina, expertise, avoidance, etc.

    I personally do not gem for pure avoidance (dodge) because of DR's - and I've found, and some math agrees, that expertise provides equivalent (or better) survivability to dodge, while also increasing threat. I use defense in my yellows, and stam in my blues.
    Xav
    Formerly Xavastrasz
    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
    control+c control+v amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnuss View Post
    Hell no, its Xav, he is gonna type that bitch till his fingers fall off.

  20. #40
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    I am currently using a similar build, however since I can guarantee that I am always raiding with a prot pally, and thus BoSanc, Am I correct in having removed the 3 points in focussed rage and imp. heroic strike, to take iron will and extra points in shield spec/cruelty?

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