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Thread: Constructive DK discussion: Initial threat.

  1. #41
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    I like that, but what I don't like is relying on a piece of gear to tank effectively.

    How about this; We get a talent in each tree, maybe on the 3rd to last tier so it needs to be well specced into in order to get it. The talent is 1 point, and reads something like this:

    "Your Frost Fever mutates into Chill of the Dead, increasing threat generated by Plague Strike by 300%. Frost Fever is not consumed by this mutation."

    Something like this would allow the pull to be done with the usual IT, and then as soon as the mob is in our face, BAM there's our big hit along with our diseases being up.

    Of course, to not make it OP, there would need to be a hidden cooldown on this mutation taking place. Let's say 20-30 seconds. So once every 20 or 30 seconds or something, Icy Touch would just be Icy Touch, causing Frost Fever. But once per cooldown, it causes Chill of the Dead and we get a nice TPS boost. But most importantly for that first pull.

    Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there while I was thinking about it.
    Off for the Holiday week now.

    Have a happy new year everyone =)
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  2. #42
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    Well tanks are very gear dependent. I really dont see them revamping the talent trees. They could always do a glyph for Icy Touch that increases its threat. Have a good holiday.

  3. #43
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    I like the glyph idea. Although, aren't Unholy DKs currently overwhelmed with "need to have" glyphs? In major slots at least.

    Hm, and it couldn't be a minor, that would be odd.
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  4. #44
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    I read through most of the other posts in this thread and I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents here and maybe get some feedback as well. I have my DK up to level 80 in all blues and some heroic/emblem epics. I have played with my own spec and right now its 20/44/7 so I am a deep frost spec with points into blood/unholy

    What has seemed to work for me in initial threat single target is IT>PS>BB>BB>OB>FS and runestrike when applicable. Multi target pulls normally I tend to deathgrip one and lay out IT>PS, by this time the other mobs of that group have caught up. A quick Pest>BB combo keeps them from heading to the healer and DPS. By this point normally my runes are coming off CD and I can follow with a HB and aggro is pretty much solid on me. As far as just charging into a group I still do IT>PS>Pest>BB>HB and then continue with BB as often as I can.

    I work around not having to drop DnD as much as possible as it costs so many runes. As such I have been in groups where we AOE'd through mobs and I have been able to keep aggro without using DnD and sticking to my rotation. I will use DnD in situations where we are fighting a boss that summons adds, I will use it either in their path to me or if they make it past me I will drop it on the healer and throw in a HB. This has been what has worked for me so far, any suggestions or advice on something new to try is welcome, and any questions on my spec I'd be happy to answer.

  5. #45
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    I was doing some thinking and I really think they need to add a talent for runestrike. Either a threat increase, dam increase, a crit bonus, or a way to make it a use on demand sorta thing.

    that and I like the idea of a glyph that helps with threat or adding threat to a move. Again, my problem is sustained threat against 5K+ DPSer. I know I am in need of a new weapon which will help alot, but in equal gear, my fellow prot pally and War are doing on average 1K more TPS than me. Maybe I need to start geming for threat, IDK, but I dont see us scaling all that will in defensive plate. Hopefully Uldar gear has alot more STR on it or something.
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

  6. #46
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    I don't know, Rune Strike is the one move I have that REALLY doesn't need buffing. It's become my #1 damage on bosses since my avoidance has improved so much, and it crits for 9k now. It's enough to make me actually inclined to find a reason to get the glyph for it (I won't I don't think, but still).

    What I'm expecting in future raids though is that our threat will scale a bit better than warriors and pallies, we're almost exclusively dependent on DPS to generate TPS (Rune Strike I've discovered boosts my baseline threat noticeably), and I think our dps scales a bit better with tanking gear and talents. I may be wrong, it's really more an impression than a careful consideration of talents/skills.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #47
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    They're increasing Rune Strike's threat to 150% in 3.0.8
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  8. #48
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    Thought i would give my thougts on the matter 2.

    For starters im an Unholy tank (5/11/55), since thats the flavor i like, a little odd specced if im to be honest, but i haven't gotten around to figure out what to change yet.

    Ive tanked much as a warrior back in the days, and enjoyed that, however was never my main, but i got as far as to try Illidan as a tank, so i have some experience pre 3.0, but not to much after, they changed warrior tanking to much for me to like, at least not for starters, it seemed like the chalenge disapeard.

    Back to the point.

    I Think we can agree that DK's is harder to start up on threat on a single target that warriors, possibly Palas and Druids to...

    We have to set up at least one disease, and in my case both is pritty signifigant.

    What i normaly do is:

    DnD, IT, PS, BS/Pest, (Idle if needed) -> Start of rotation

    AoE:

    On AoE i tend to burn both Blood Runes and some Death Runes using Pest and Blood Boil, BB also converts blood runes to death runes so thats my key to Death Runes on AoE pulls.

    Single:

    On Single target pulls (bosses mostly) i use Blood Strike solely to convert Blood Runes to Death Runes, otherwise i use Scourge Strike alot.

    And i would say that it's better to use SS thatn BS becouse it hits for so much more, but then again, this might be becouse i have the Sigil that improves SS and OB

    So... Do i have problems with DPS? rarely, and when i do it boils down to a few things.

    - I Need to position a Boss (or a trash group) and some idiot DPS starts right away before im in place.

    Obviously this ends up in disaster, we keep a strict policy on those kind of bosses, no DPS is allowed to start before the boss is where hes surpose to be, but it always happens some times that someone sleeps through that part of the rules.

    And while this is an issue for me, it is for all other tank classes, even our warriors, while they can keep the boss for maybe 2 sec's longer than me, that idiot always pulls.

    - I Miss on an important attack in the beginning

    This can really leave me struggeling in the start, normaly i yell out on vent that DPS is to keep off a few more secs becouse i missed an attack, but even then i find it hard to get back up without simply waiting for runes to replenish so i can start over, i think this situation can be counted on one hand for all the heroics and naxx 25 ive done.

    - On trash or adds from bosses

    When im to pick up adds on bosses, it sometimes happens an add gets lose, normaly nothing DG can't handle.

    On trash ive seen some more severe situations, but this always is becouse something else went wrong before i lose adds, more specificly it happens that someone accedently pulls the next group before we are done with the current one, and when the AoE rains down heavely it seems no AoE shit i can put down have any chance of controlling a new incomming pack, this is where i so much miss my AoE taunt from my warrior.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So i think all the above boils down to failed situations.

    So, do i think out initial threat (and threat in genneral) is ok?.

    Surtainly not, becouse even though i have no trouble keeping my distance to our DPS, it bugs me that my fellow tank classes does the job so much better.

    Reason for this is obviously that it leaves us more likely to be the looked over class, the tank people don't take unless nothing else is available, so while i can maintain about 5-6k TPS to times, it's just no satisfying when my fellow warrior does 7k. (25 man raid numbers)

    Is it to much to ask that we can do as good a job as other tanks?...

    A Word on Rune Strike

    Rune strike was, afaik the attack that could keep us going if we missed another one, however it seems to me that RS has become nessesary to use even when all our attacks hit, so when our attacks miss we still falls behind. Bummer.

    Hopefully the changes to RS will make up for this a bit, after all

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Death and Decay ?

    ive tried many rotations as Unholy, but im puzzled why DnD seems so unused if i look over all the posts here, yes it is awkward to put down becouse it requires 1 of each rune, and is therefore hard to fit in a rotation, well it wouln't fit in a rotation just becouse of it's CD (even talented).

    However i use it alot, becouse it does seem to boost my TPS by far more than any of my rotations can handle, whenever i put it down my TPS seems to jump almost 2k up for the duration it's active.

    What i try to do is to have RP running high and then when my runes run out becouse ive reasently used DnD, i dump some of that on UB or DC making shure to have enough to use RS. otherwise i just accept the "Idle" time becouse it seems better to me to do so than using one more SS+BS, even on bosses.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Im not shure what things im doing right, and what things im doing wrong... but im surtainly doing fine in raids.

    But we are a new class, and we will need fine tunning, this is IMO to be expected, but im not feeling all that off anymore as i did before.

    Things will improve in time...

    Be back later... G2G now >.<

  9. #49
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    Small thing dotJEM you seem to think Rune Strike works the way I first thought it did on reading the tooltip (admittedly not clear). Rune Strike becomes available whenever YOU dodge or parry an attack, not when your attacks are dodged or parried.

    Also, I always start aoe pulls with DnD, that compounded with Ebon Plague and Rage of Rivendare makes for some great base aoe threat, but I don't tend to reset it often, I usually use my further rotations for corpse explosion, blood boil and single target crushing. It's not often an issue and I can hold single targets better off of all the classes that have more damage on their main target.


    The thing I've noticed is that the initial threat trouble was really a matter of having starting tank gear at 80. As I've gotten more and more epics (read more strength, hit, expertise, and avoidance for RS's), my initial threat actually spikes quite well just with my standard rotation. If I'm on a single boss target, IT > PS > ScS with any RS's that proc which is usually one or two, and certainly are after I hit a quick couple BS's, I'm usually spiking ahead of pallies quite well, and on par with my warrior counterparts. I've actually tanked very little next to bears, so I can't speak much on the relative. I finally got Inevitable Defeat, which has been doing nice things for my threat, though the weapon damage didn't increase THAT much since I traded a 3.6 speed polearm for a 3.4 speed mace with higher dps. All in all, I LOVE that weapon though, it really has it all.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Small thing dotJEM you seem to think Rune Strike works the way I first thought it did on reading the tooltip (admittedly not clear). Rune Strike becomes available whenever YOU dodge or parry an attack, not when your attacks are dodged or parried.
    Thats a misunderstanding, i know that it's when i dodge or parry, the word from blizzard was still that it's sthe ability that should make us keep up when we misses, but as i stated, it seems needed even when we don't miss, get dodged or parry'ed.

    ( If i though what you though i though, i wouldn't be able to make that statement >.< )

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Also, I always start aoe pulls with DnD, that compounded with Ebon Plague and Rage of Rivendare makes for some great base aoe threat, but I don't tend to reset it often, I usually use my further rotations for corpse explosion, blood boil and single target crushing. It's not often an issue and I can hold single targets better off of all the classes that have more damage on their main target.
    Ive begun to put it more and more down, simply becouse it seems to spike my threat so much, even single target tanking, it's the difference for running around 4K TPS and 6K TPS for me...

    i didn't in the beginning becouse it always broke up my rotation, but later on... not that i can't keep ahead DPS without, but i like to optimize my TPS and think of that instead of being conserned with filling all GCD, it might be we are not surpose to work that way after all.

    But i can't keep up with our top warrs, this might be becouse i need a better weapon, currently im running with the Crafted 2H Titanstell mace. Time will tell when i get my last pieces...

    I Must admit though, as you indicate, we seem to scale better on the threat scale with gear that others...

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