Constructive DK discussion: Initial threat.

[Njordus]

Well you should NEVER "open" with OB. Without your diseases up, it'll never hit as hard. Pull with IT, smack with PS and then OB. If you're lucky you'll pick up a free HB proc to pile on top of it and you're off and running. Once your IT & PS are up, the diseases are also generating threat for you too, so you'd be remiss to skip them. If you're still losing aggro too fast, using DnD on a single target may seem like a waste of runes, but it's our only "high threat" move until they patch Rune Strike, but even then you won't be opening with RS very regularly (if at all). You can also use DG for a ghetto taunt to "force" the boss to focus on you for 3 seconds which can be enough for an extra GCD. Even though it says "immune" on bosses, they're only immune to the "pulling" part afaik... the ghetto-taunt still works as long as they're actually tauntable bosses.

Read the glyph, get an epic weapon, then realize how little damage comes from your diseases.

Should you want to open with OB? Not really, but if you're having problems with threat then you might have to. OR get dps that isn't retarded.

You really shouldn't be worried about threat: I have people doing 3.5k dps and never have threat pulled. If you are having problems with threat, try using your abilities, and/or auto-attacking.

[Licentia]

Under the current mechanics (runes and RP) I don't see a way to make DnD more viable short of (a) consumes less runes, (b) costs nothing, or (c) post patch, make it cost a hair less than the RP that Horn of Winter will generate. The CD of DnD is something else entirely, but I understand that it needs one or it would be rather overpowered in PvP.

That said, having gone through all 10 man content (now working on Sarth +2), the only place I can say I feel I have problems with threat as a DK is on Sarth with drakes. I handle adds for the fight. The biggest problem I run into is when we leave Tenebron up, and I have to be able to pick up both elementals AND whelps when they appear. When we finally managed it I wasn't even AoE specced (Blood - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft). The hardest part is getting people to understand they can't go all-out AoE on the elementals, because I'm not going to drop DnD on them but pick them up one at a time instead. If I dropped a DnD on the elementals, even with a 15 second CD it's not guaranteed to be up for the whelp spawn, and not being able to pick them up immediately means a dead healer and a wipe.

[Villegard]

The thing is, I understand DnD needing a penalty for use. So currently, costing half of you runes. What I don't get is why it's so detrimental to your ability to continue to tank after you lay it down. It destroys any rotation you may have planned on using (outside of the DnD > IT > PS > Wait > Pest > etc. etc.) and makes the AoE need to wait anyway.

Maybe if it's penalty for use was something like "...generates no Runic Power and prevents the Death Knight from generating Runic Power for the next 5 seconds."

Just an example but you know what I mean. This would allow us to use it for tanking better, and make sure it's not OP in PvP. Maybe not though? I must admit I'm a bit dense when it comes to PvP.

[Villegard]

Now that I mention it, I need to start PvPing more... Wtf did I even just say?

[legìon]

i haven't had any problems with agro once i started throwing D&D then DG on any mob immune to the pull effect or not at the begining of every pull, yea i wait a few seconds to get PS out but i never lose agro. i havn't seen anyone mention Deathgrip. and frankly i think its one of the best tanking moves out there for building initial threat. i could be wrong i guess, but it works for me.

[xKhellendrosx]

The cooldown removal on pestilence might help a little bit, I know I tend to use that to help with picking up adds most of the time. Until I can play around with Pestilence without a cooldown and see how much easier it makes picking up adds, I'll keep feeling like Morbidity is a required talent for fights/events where adds need to be picked up all the time.

Gothik was sort of brutal for me the first time I had to try tanking the living side. Once the other tank and I switched sides it was a little bit easier for me.

[lyd]

i haven't had any problems with threat as of yet. my biggest issue is that DnD is verrry awkward to fit into a rotation. it needs one of every rune to function, and has a 15-second talented internal cooldown, so trying to fit it into a rotation of abilities that use 1 and 2 runes at a time is very difficult to plan for. if i need to re-apply it in a fight i find myself waiting 2 or 3 seconds while the proper runes come off cooldown, which wastes valuable GCD's. the problem is i'm not sure i have an effective solution at this point, since having it use no runes, even with a cooldown, would be a bit OP because it frees up runes for extended rotations; and having it use RP instead is impractical, since then you can't use it immediately. it may be just one of those things we'll have to deal with moving forward. :P

[Villegard]

i haven't had any problems with agro once i started throwing D&D then DG on any mob immune to the pull effect or not at the begining of every pull, yea i wait a few seconds to get PS out but i never lose agro. i havn't seen anyone mention Deathgrip. and frankly i think its one of the best tanking moves out there for building initial threat. i could be wrong i guess, but it works for me.

As far as I know, Death Grip doesn't generate any threat. It's a temporary taunt.

In any case, let's try to keep this discussion on topic.
We're talking about initial burst threat here. Threat generated in the first second or two of contact with a mob or group of mobs.

No one is saying there's any underlying issue with threat over time.

[Satorri]

Aye, there are two mechanisms:
Taunt = brings your threat equal to the person with the highest threat and forces them to attack you for the moment (used to be 3 sec, but I don't know if that still holds). It has no effect if you're already the mobs target.

Mocking Blow = forces the mob to attack you for a period of time without changing your threat. Death Grip is a mocking blow and it forces them to attack you for 3 sec.

That being said, it can be used as a bandaid for your starting threat so that dps doesn't pull off you if they ramp up faster than you.


We can take a step back here too and think about it. If we're looking at the first few seconds, who are you having trouble with on threat? Other tanks, sure I can believe that, charge => shield slam is a big chunk. Most casters will have a 2+ second cast on their first hit, if it's shorter its a dot, or they're popping instants which is a stupid move as a caster dps, even if tank threat is good in the first couple seconds, there's no good reason to test it. Arms warriors are one of the only things I can think of to really test your threat, since they have no threat reduction from talents, and they can charge burst for rage at the front of the fight.

Fury warriors have a threat debuff and take a second to start ramping up rage. Rogues and Hunters have TotT and Misdirects that should let them not only not burst ahead of you but be giving you their threat early on. Ele shamans have a cast to start and you should be rolling enough that even a first shot crit shouldn't be enough pull with his threat debuff. Enhancement shamans would open with smaller crits still, and they're also debuffed on threat. Mages, Locks, Priests, all adhere to the above. They have a threat reduction, and/or they have a longer cast to start. For druids, ferals don't start big and they build more slowly than most I've seen, Boomkin can shell out big hurts, but their big damage takes setting up too, their quickest initial cast that would give you threat to worry about will still take a couple seconds. Death Knight dps have to ramp up damage like we do. Ret pallies are threat debuffed as well, and will likely ramp up as well.

So, the question is (to everyone), who regularly tests your threat? What class/spec?


I know, with the groups I run with, it's an arms warrior who's usually highest on threat behind me. On long fights Fire/Frost mages can be long term threat chasing if they get good strings of crits. I don't regularly run with rogues or hunters, so I'm not used to having their threat to fight or to help. I've had the occasional brush with an enhancement shaman, though it wasn't lasting (LB crits maybe).

[nivani]

Read the glyph, get an epic weapon, then realize how little damage comes from your diseases.

Should you want to open with OB? Not really, but if you're having problems with threat then you might have to. OR get dps that isn't retarded.

You really shouldn't be worried about threat: I have people doing 3.5k dps and never have threat pulled. If you are having problems with threat, try using your abilities, and/or auto-attacking.

Realize that they're going to keep gearing and so are you. They're picking up dps stats, and you're getting a metric ton of stam and avoidance stats with a touch more strength for threat.

So while your TPS is going to scale only slightly, their DPS is going to continue to skyrocket. I've got 4.5k+ WWS DPS fury warriors and FFB mages riding my ass.

Under normal circumstances this is not a problem. My standard unholy spec out threats them by a large enough margin to relax. However, there are situations where this is not the case. 3 drake Sarth comes to mind. I MT Sarth and am specced into this horrid Vot3W effective health setup to hit ~39k health. Now the DPS is busy doing other stuff through most of the fight so once the initial dps burst is over on Sarth it's all gravy, but that initial 30 seconds is rather shakey due to positioning and horrible burst threat. Even after an EPW for an extra couple SS's the dps is close behind. I've gotta talk down the mages from their suicidal tendancies everytime. With our rogues/hunters and the dps playing a bit conservative everything works out. I just don't like the fact that under specific situations I just cannot maintain an acceptable TPS level, nor to I like pallies doubling my threat on Patch.

Overall, I think DK threat is on the minimum side of acceptable. A slight tweak to frost presence would be very welcome though.

[Kyt]

As a DK I have always tanked as Blood. I use a 2 level rotation and never seem to have problems with threat. In a fight where I just got to have it right now, I open with: IT - Death Grip - PS - OB - HS - HS - DC. My second rotation just follows along like it normally would OB - HS x 4 - DC.

The reason I chose blood in the first place is due to it's considerably stronger single target tanking for 2h weapons. Sorry I know it works, but can't wrap myself in DW tanking.

DPS can open up as soon as they see they see the purple line. I have 10k threat + by the time I hit that first obliterate and the HS's just take it up a notch.

[Steel]

On my DK unholy spec I usually open with a IT, BS, BS PS, DS. If its an aoe group i will switch out the second BS for pestillence. So far I havent had any real issues with threat with other classes. My biggest issue is fury warriors and rogues if they dont hold back at the beginning of the fight they will pull aggro. Oh correct me if im wrong on using death strike instead of scourage strike. I just assumed that the healing from death strike would help with threat.

Blizzard says they are releasing a tanking sigil for us. Ive seen it and dont care for it to much. I would much rather see a sigil that says something like:

Equip: Greatly Increases threat generated by IT
Equip: Increases defense rating by 10 (or whatever)


Unless its a caster then I always open with IT so having it cause more threat makes it more like a shield slam. What do you guys think?

[Villegard]

Steel, great suggestion with the threat on IT. Why not? Every specs rotation (assuming you're pulling from range) starts with IT. Why can't we have a 200% threat multiplier or something? Can't that be a "causes a high amount of threat" ability?

Has this been suggested on the WoW forums?

[Steel]

Ive been thinking about that for a while now ever since beta but Im not sure where to post it. I just recently started posting here. If you would like to post it someplace blizzard looks that would be great. Especially if they actually made it

[Villegard]

Steel, I posted it in the suggestion forums (linked below)

I don't think it's getting any attention due to the holiday. Maybe people just don't care?

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Death Knights: Tanking suggestion.

[Krovacs]

For running heroics and pulling packs of 3-4 mobs at once, this is my typical rotation:

IT - Pest - HB - BB and then after that I start working single target dps on the first kill target. This is almost always enough to hold a pack on me. I'm also a fan of the talent Deathchill, which allows for some quick front-loaded threat. On a group of mobs, I'll do a Deathchilled HB. On a single target a Deathchilled Oblit. This helps get some very solid aggro early on.

Actually, in all honesty, my threat problems come over the long haul. One of my best friends is an Affliction lock and after about a minute of combat, he starts creeping ever closer to me on threat. A lot of times I have to keep my taunt and deathgrip ready when I'm grouped with him.

[Steel]

Yeah its the holidays i wouldn't worry to much about it. Krovacs I personally haven't tried anything other than unholy. Ive always enjoyed that play still. Now the initial threat for me is an issue but once i get rolling I'm perfectly fine. Haven't had any issues as long as they give me time. But those warriors they just love to charge in and steal that threat. But its ok they die off pretty fast and then the mob is mine again.

[Krenian]

I would greatly, GREATLY dislike IT having a high amount of threat for a DPS standpoint.

IT is part of a DPS rotation as much as a tanking rotation and you'd be crippling a disease for DKs if you do put this in the rotation. I'm not sure about others but as my DK, I usually can push my tanks' threat levels and be able to go all out. Adding a circumstance where if I use a skill, I get threat, they're effectively giving us the same problem that Fury Warriors have when they Queue up Heroic Strike.

However! A suggestion that I would place is effectively give us an aura that INCREASES the threat generated by diseases such as IT and PS, similar to the Paladin's Righteous Aura. Hell, as we all know, Blizzard is lazy as hell, just call it Unrighteous Fury or something as silly as that. Just some buff that allows diseases to cause more threat.

That could go leaps and bounds ahead for our tanking and not only would it be somewhat unique (The fact that it would only affect the DK's diseases would be unique in itself.) but it would potentially help out with the threat issues I find. (We'd have to hope they'd be smart enough to put D&D up in that list so our AoE potential is better.)

[Ray]

I think the biggest problem is that we dont have a dedicated tanking tree so they cant add a Shield slam type ability. Each tree adds a new powerful hit that they could just had a big threat number too, but then that would gimp it for DPS so they dont do it.

However, personally I am having very few threat issues and any that I do have are long term ones and not initial ones. The only time a DPS pulls off me in a raid is when there attacking the wrong target or hits it before it gets to me.

I have been tanking for a long time so the people I run with our used to how I do things (back from my feral and warrior days) so there are very few class restrictions. One trick to learn to do is get ahead of your group. as soon as the mob dies start running. The only people I wait for mana on our healers and they generally have enough to get you from one boss to the next. and getting a head start on the DPS who are looting and drinking give me time to build threat. Also, use DnD on the pull. It is a ton of threat.

If your having issues during a hero, use your DPS CD's. I always use empowered rune blade during hero for the added threat. get dissease rolling, burn RP, burn runes, pop ERB and your off and running. Ive never had an issues during a hero if I do that.

My major concern for threat is when I have to use a defensive CD that uses a rune or I miss an attack and it breaks up my rune CD, particually on my death runes. I hate having one death and one blood. Its these breaks in the rotation or just trying to weave your way back to a rotation were I have low periods in my TPS. It reminds me of being a warrior when Id have to refresh demo and TC and they both get resisted. This is my biggest complaint about DK tanking.

If your having threat issues and your still using a blue weapon, get a new weapon. Your weapon is your single biggest threat generating item. going from a 160 ish DPS weapon to a 200 ish DPS weapon will yield huge threat increases. that and dont be affriad to taunt off a DPSer who pulls. I encourage my DPSer to try and jack on long fights, it means there doing there job.

[Steel]

Tony I understand that IT is part of everyones rotation. Tank or DPS. That is why I suggested making a sigil that did it. So when tanking put the sigil on when dpsing swap for another. Call it something like:

Sigil of Agonizing Gaze
Equip: Greatly increases the threat generated by your Icy Touch but increases its cooldown by 6 seconds
Equip: Increases your defense rating by 10%

Making the defense rating increase by a percent means as we lvl in content and our tank brothers get new and better shields with more armor and defense on it. We will slowly increase our defense when we get new armor. This would hopefully make up for the lack of a shield and hopefully make up for the lack of a high treat ability. I also just posted this idea on the wow forums thanks Ville for the link .