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Thread: DK Changes on PTR

  1. #21
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    25 straight to defense might be a bit much but you should understand the fact that having no defense from 3 slots was a bit much. For instance many DKs were/are running with a green axe from Icecrown to reach cap. And a lot of others are stuck with Daunting gauntlets/legs over other should be upgrades just due to the insane def on them.

    As far as your Blood DK friend, can they currently tank? Yes no question. However they are very much like warriors pre shockwave/ae buffs.

    If you don't see that they needed tweaks for AE then I'll just have to disagree with you.

  2. #22
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    Honestly I don't mind at all about the rune because there are alot of deathknights out right now and maybe 10% of them know how to tank, Infact I only know one personally.

    The only thing that really annoys me about Deathknights is they can tank in any spec they want...blood,unholy,frost they get bored of one then go to another. As a warrior If I don't certain talents it will effect my overall tanking heavly. Its nothing I can't get around but it eats at me that they have so much freedom with their talents.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talani View Post
    Honestly I don't mind at all about the rune because there are alot of deathknights out right now and maybe 10% of them know how to tank, Infact I only know one personally.

    The only thing that really annoys me about Deathknights is they can tank in any spec they want...blood,unholy,frost they get bored of one then go to another. As a warrior If I don't certain talents it will effect my overall tanking heavly. Its nothing I can't get around but it eats at me that they have so much freedom with their talents.
    valid point. however, prot dps has been increased prestigiously, to the point where some tanks are starting to beat dps classes on the charts, which would've been a laughable notion in TBC. Also, when Dual-spec is introduced, this won't be as much of a problem, so i wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urrick View Post
    25 straight to defense might be a bit much but you should understand the fact that having no defense from 3 slots was a bit much. For instance many DKs were/are running with a green axe from Icecrown to reach cap. And a lot of others are stuck with Daunting gauntlets/legs over other should be upgrades just due to the insane def on them.
    There are warriors only wearing 2/3 of the T7 pieces they have for the same reason. Yet all classes are having a far easier time getting uncritable than it was in TBC - people just seem to forget that because in TBC you had to spend time gearing up while you unlocked heroics (and then gearing up in heroics and from crafteds while you unlocked raids).

    Now that there are no attunements people seem to think it's a crime if they have to spend a week or two at 80 trying to get uncritable, or if they can't gem for socket bonuses (I think I got a grand total of 2 non-blue socket bonuses in TBC).

    If you don't see that they needed tweaks for AE then I'll just have to disagree with you.
    Blood is for sure weaker for AE tanking, I would agree with you (skadi is much harder for our blood DK than for me). Otoh, while Blizz promised that you'd be able to tank in any spec, I'm not sure every spec needs to be the best at tanking every single encounter. An unholy DK tank would laugh at skadi's adds and have no problem with agro on them.

    So I don't think DK AE tanking was broken, just that not every spec excelled at it. BTW warriors have to spec into AE tanking too. If I want to maximize my single target tanking I take more mitigation talents (like 5/5 Shield Specialization) and single target DPS talents (e.g. 5/5 Cruelty and 3/3 Deep Wounds) and don't take Shockwave, Damage Shield, etc.

    We all have to make compromises in our specs, and I don't see why DKs shouldn't have the same trade offs.
    Last edited by TomHuxley; 12-18-2008 at 11:01 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talani View Post
    Honestly I don't mind at all about the rune because there are alot of deathknights out right now and maybe 10% of them know how to tank, Infact I only know one personally.
    Ironically this is exactly what bothers me. I want quality DK tanks to succeed - right now there is an obnoxious glut of poor ones, but it's mostly unfair to good DK tanks who are often passed over for PuGs - My issue is that Blizz seems to be making changes that will make it easier for bad players to start tanking heroics, etc, and that's an issue that can effect everyone.

    Tanking is now easier for all classes, and in most ways more fun, and that's a good thing. But that becomes a slippery slope when you start taking your FotM class that has the most new/unskilled tanks and start dumbing it down to allow easier success rather than some extra effort to learn what you're doing.

    I know two good DK tanks personally, and what they both have in common is they were tanks before they rolled DKs. Someone who has never tanked before should darn well expect to spend as much time learning to tank with a DK as with any other class, not clamor for the class to be made even easier to tank with.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urrick View Post
    If you don't see that they needed tweaks for AE then I'll just have to disagree with you.
    Is this a complaint about Blood in particular? Our Unholy DK tank puts out pretty absurd AE threat.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    Ironically this is exactly what bothers me. I want quality DK tanks to succeed - right now there is an obnoxious glut of poor ones, but it's mostly unfair to good DK tanks who are often passed over for PuGs - My issue is that Blizz seems to be making changes that will make it easier for bad players to start tanking heroics, etc, and that's an issue that can effect everyone.

    Tanking is now easier for all classes, and in most ways more fun, and that's a good thing. But that becomes a slippery slope when you start taking your FotM class that has the most new/unskilled tanks and start dumbing it down to allow easier success rather than some extra effort to learn what you're doing.

    I know two good DK tanks personally, and what they both have in common is they were tanks before they rolled DKs. Someone who has never tanked before should darn well expect to spend as much time learning to tank with a DK as with any other class, not clamor for the class to be made even easier to tank with.
    I think honestly the dumbing down is a issue for every class. Remmber in UBRS getting utter destoryed by pulls because people didn't know how to sheep... or pull..or watch their threat. Now it seems like every pull is a AE pull, i've met mages who didn't even have sheep on their hotbar, and If I meet a arms war that holds back on the bladestorm long enough to allow me time to get aggro on everything ill make him my best friend. I don't know a whole lot about Deathknight tanking but it seems hard and alot of people don't like a challange, sadly Blizzard seems to work for those people.

  8. #28
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    DK tanking is a lot of work, much more than I did as a warrior or druid. Or at least a lot of buttons to watch and push. I sometimes refer to DKing as bard like. Truthfully I see most DKs being dps just because its easier (not to be good just to have less responsibility).

    Is this a complaint about Blood in particular?
    Yep blood only. Frost and Unholy are fine in AE threat.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talani View Post
    I think honestly the dumbing down is a issue for every class. Remmber in UBRS getting utter destoryed by pulls because people didn't know how to sheep... or pull..or watch their threat. Now it seems like every pull is a AE pull, i've met mages who didn't even have sheep on their hotbar, and If I meet a arms war that holds back on the bladestorm long enough to allow me time to get aggro on everything ill make him my best friend. I don't know a whole lot about Deathknight tanking but it seems hard and alot of people don't like a challange, sadly Blizzard seems to work for those people.
    DK tanking is quite easy to hold threat, and gearing is the only part that takes some thought and effort. Lowering the Defense threshold to 515 (which i had at 79 ffs) only makes the game easier.

    It's not a big deal as the bad tanks will still suck. I'm actually looking foward to being able to research the optimal gearing post defense cap between more defense, more parry/dodge/ or more stam.

    As it is now I'm pretty much just gearing for the defense cap and then balancing stam with dodge/parry to hit gem bonuses.

    I do think its funny that people complain about hitting 540. I think these are the same people that complain about honor grind for welfare epics.
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  10. #30
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    I honestly need to hit 80 before I start worrying to much about all that (76 atm) playing way to much left 4 dead really hurt my leveling.

    Back on topic though, as for rune buff for two handers, I say let them have it if it keeps them away from my sexy sexy one handers. If I am right about Deathknights all they really need to switch to a dps role is the gear right? If true that makes them very Flexable which is a good thing to have on fights like Prince where you only need one tank or fights like Aran where you don't even need a tank.

    Besides them having it can only help your raid progress. As far as my raid group goes we don't even have a MT and a OT. Me and our paladin who just turned to a DK tank have always shared the responsablity equally and often fight over letting the other tank something. Works out great for us..but then again I play on a RP server so we are abit less comptitive.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightmgl View Post
    Thats pretty silly getting 25 skill = 124 rating. The most you can get from a weapon + shield + ranged is around 120 assuming you have the highest defense items available in game for those slots including a really expensive engineering gun.

    That means you basically get 25 man epic level defense for free and significantly more in those slots over a paladin.

    I'm glad they gave you guys something cause the lower levels really stunk but thats serious overkill.

    It also uses our enchant slot. So while other classes can still enchant shield/weapon (and gun if they wanted I suppose) ours is taken up by this.

    I think it's pretty good way to deal with it.

  12. #32
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    A person with skill can play any class in this game and do thier job regardless spec. Bickering about how "class A gets ability A and is now easy mode" is a weak argument. Retards still roll their forehead over the keys and blame someone else when things go wrong.

    A lot of you guys have seriously derailed this conversation. It is very easy for any plate tank in the current game to get uncritable in blues. The problem comes into play when you upgrade to epics and the average defense rating on your gear goes down by 30 or so. The 25 skill rune was put in place to make up for the flexibility paladins and warriors have when it came to equipping main hand, shield, and range items. The flexibility came not only from the items you can put in those slots, but also in the enchants and sockets you could pick from as well. You could socket out/enchant to remain uncritable, or you could socket out/enchant to boost your threat. In the current game DK's do not have anything close to that luxury. Adding the 25 defense skill rune fixes that problem.

    As far as everything being an AE fest, well as a tank it's kind of your fault for letting that happen. If you don't call for CC then don't get pissed off at the mage for not sheeping. Every DPS class in this game has viable CC so make your DPS use it when you need it or stop grouping with lazy idiots.

  13. #33
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    Back on topic... what I'm really interested in, is what scaling IBF gains from Defence of 600+.

    I expect a diminishing return at some point to the IBF gain from Defence.

  14. #34
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    Simply arguing about the defense gain while comparing DK's to other classes is not fair. While warrior's and pallies may get less overall defense from their three slots they have SHIELDS which mitigate tons of damage. DK's may have more avoidance than anyone else but they also have way less health than druids and do not have the mitigation that shields provide.

    Disagree with me, that's fine. But don't make class comparisons without taking all the factors into consideration.

    The defense rune was direly needed. A 20% increase to armor however does seem like too much.

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Errant View Post
    With that rune on my defense is sitting at 565. I went back to the obsidian dragonshrine. This time I was taking 331 damage per tick instead of 355... roughly a 44.83% damage reduction. I wonder if it has a cap or if it can go over its old 50% value. If anyone wants to figure out exactly how much it improves per point of defense, knock yourselves out :P
    With roughly a 4% increase with 25 added skill, that equates to roughly .16% per def skill. I am courious to see if IBF is affected by DR, if not, then I see another IBF nerf coming.

  16. #36
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    My DK hit level 80 the Saturday that just passed. It was my first level-capped character ever and I had no idea what to do. With the help of the OT in my guild and the GL's advice, I managed to get my defense rating to 542 by tuesday. It's now 547 or something. I didn't find it difficult at all, though I find AOE threat difficult to hold though that's probably a personal tanking problem that I am working on. I don't know how big of an influence that new patched runeblade enchant is going to be, but I dont think that capping a DK was hard for me at all. It took 2-3 days to reach the raid level cap or w/e.

  17. #37
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    Well with the new runeblade engraving, it gives DK's more of a gearing option than before and allows new DK's to hit the Def SOFT cap easier. For me, being Soft capped, I will probably get the new egraving as long as %dodge/parry from Def doesnt DR. You will get approx. %3 dodge and parry from the 25 def SKILL youd be gettin from the rune and %3 health which for me is worth the loss of the %1 parry. The thing I am interested in is the IBF scaling from Def. If it doesnt fall flat like Def itself, that would allow DK's to stack Def to their hearts desire, mostly frosties being they can increase IBF.

  18. #38
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    A couple people have gotten it right. It isn't that bad to reach the Defence cap. However, there have been several times were I had to turn down epics because I would fall below the cap. With the new run this will make it easier to recieve new upgrades and I see why blizzard did this. It will help undergeared DK tanks but at the same time it will help the good DK tanks that have worked hard for there defence cap. It will help us become more flexible on gems, on enchants, and on upgrades.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talani View Post
    I think honestly the dumbing down is a issue for every class. Remmber in UBRS getting utter destoryed by pulls because people didn't know how to sheep... or pull..or watch their threat. Now it seems like every pull is a AE pull, i've met mages who didn't even have sheep on their hotbar, and If I meet a arms war that holds back on the bladestorm long enough to allow me time to get aggro on everything ill make him my best friend. I don't know a whole lot about Deathknight tanking but it seems hard and alot of people don't like a challange, sadly Blizzard seems to work for those people.
    i was a warrior MT before wolk im now playing dk i like the class and im tanking as blood so far ive found it quite fun but you really need to keep on the ball , im thinking of going frost to see the difference as frost is the tank build compared to blood , but i tend to agree blizzard will dumb down the game as they don't want to loss players , most instances now a days are major AOE tanking pulls were you dps is just going mental and if you have a bad tank there you end up dead fast . i think as time goes on alot of Dk will drop by the wayside as they find that tanking is and can be quite hard to do it well

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kekoa View Post
    A couple people have gotten it right. It isn't that bad to reach the Defence cap. However, there have been several times were I had to turn down epics because I would fall below the cap. With the new run this will make it easier to recieve new upgrades and I see why blizzard did this. It will help undergeared DK tanks but at the same time it will help the good DK tanks that have worked hard for there defence cap. It will help us become more flexible on gems, on enchants, and on upgrades.
    Yeah, this is the main reason I'm looking forward to the new runeforge option (and the new BS weapons... /sigh at my Titansteel Destroyer). It's not about making it easier to get def capped, because honestly it's just as stupidly easy for DK's as it is for all tank classes in WotLK. The problem becomes the fact that DK's are giving up more stam/hit/dodge/parry than other classes due to the lack of options in the 3 slots. I have to use all the crafted items with insane defense and nothing else to hit the cap as my guild begins Naxx. As a result, I have more chances to miss/parry on bosses and that hurts our chances for success. I'm already at 542 defense, but I'll gladly swap my runeforge choice so I can gem up my +hit/avoidance to help out the raid more. Once I'm decked out in shiny purples, I can go back to Swordshattering because it's honestly easier to make up 25 defense skill than it is 4% parry with gems due to the ratings ratios. Honestly I think our current tanking enchant is more OP than the one you guys are arguing about. Although with the new BS weapons giving 90 defense rating, we may just get to stick with Swordshattering anyway.

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