DK Changes on PTR

[jettzypher]

not to detour from topic too much, but you mentioned the titansteel helm having a meta and blue slot added in...i had been told the mats required to make the helm were changed/increased/?. can you shed some light here? thanks.

[Satorri]

Some of you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

"They're dumbing the game down?" "Giving out free crutches?"

All this does is allow DK's to reach the uncrittable cap more easily. Until this patch there are no def rating 2-handers, which means unlike warriors and pallies who can get a tanking sword and tanking shield with points towards the def cap, we get zero from 2 slots. The upside is we need to get a lot more better tanking gear before we can hit that cap. I had to dps my way into heroics and the like just to get the gear to tank them. THAT is what Blizz is trying to remedy. I don't hear anyone crying in their milk over the fact that druids don't need any defense or resilience to be uncrittable, ever....

This also doesn't dumb the game down or make tanking any easier on DK's other than bringing the uncrittable cap more easily within reach. Tanking is still as hard as it ever was. 25 def skill (which is ~132 def rating, incidentally), is not "too much to get for free." The class skill of runeforging is one of our class skills to through in the balance. You get permanent weapon enchants instead. We already get a 4% parry buff that is not subject to diminishing returns (and is arguably much better for someone over the def cap) but NO ONE is crying about that.

Some of you have such a pejorative outlook on changes they make in the game that you make a big fuss over a small matter that may not even affect you. Grow up and start acting like an adult.

[Terciopelo]

I'm surprised this thread got off topic without mentioning the few other changes to DK's on PTR.

Vampiric Blood - Now 50% healing and 20% more hp for 20 seconds (old, was just 50% healing)

Will of the Necropolis - Now reduces damage by 15% when below 35% health instead of increasing armor.

Outbreak - no longer increases the damage on pestilence.

Bloody Strikes - increases pestilence damage by 60%.

Heart Strike - No longer removes haste effects. Hits an additional target alla cleave.

Overall, blood got some great changes this patch. I'll be going blood since boneshield took such a huge hit now. Vampiric blood is hilariously awesome, and a perfect counter to any boss that mortal strikes.

Also, Glyph of D&D - Down to 10% per tick to fear from 20%.

[GravityDK]

I want to know... if Will of the Necropolis on PTR/3.08 will reduce damage that would take you below 35% (as opposed to ardent defender, which only kicks in once you're in the near-dead-zone).

[Errant]

Yeah Terciopelo, I mostly just talked about changes that were'd obvious from the patch notes... I figured anyone could figure those out :P What interested me was changes to IBF and the mechanics of our new runeforge and such.

Since then they've added two new blacksmithing recipes for 90 parry rating and 90 defense. 90 defense is going to give us more avoidance than 90 parry rating does, so thats kinda pointless and silly...

But I think those new weapons are a mistake. My death knight is already raid buffing up to 75% avoidance... and I'm still using some items that are far from great. I've used stamina gems every chance I've gotten... I'm using high armor pieces while they're still being multiplied. I've still got a Tempered Titansteel helm. Giving me this much spare defense means I can switch to even more avoidance oriented gear... With the new defense weapon alone I'll be around 78% avoidance. I can regem and swap gear around and probably break 80%. It is way too early in the game to be avoiding 4 out of 5 swings at me. I've got a mix of 10man and 25man naxx gear, some crafted epics... hardly maxed out.

I forsee the DRs on avoidance being adjusted further.


Also, for armor...
I got ahold of a defender's code in addition to the cloak, ring and neck piece with bonus armor I already had. Going from live to PTR I gain 1335 armor now, but still lose bone shield and IBF sustained mitigation. If the goal is for us to be less spikey, they're doing it wrong.

[GravityDK]

I tested the IBF reduction from Defence, to derive formula.

Screenshots and details are in this thread.

Summary:
- tested lava damage at defence 470, 540, 571, 596.
- linear improvement in IBF
- each point over 400 def gives 0.15 incremental improvement to IBF.


Also, tested Will of the Necropolis in lava and from falling, and so no evidence it's implemented/working.

[Oneri]

The rune is needed. I got epic gloves sitting in the bank I can't use because it puts me under 540. I'm two heroic runs away from my epic chest that I can't use either.

I'm confused on how people are equating defense rating to actual skill in tanking. Tanking requires a lot more than defense rating, and Paladins and Warriors have lots of abilities for tanking that one could argue carry a 'bad' tank. How well received would a feral druid be if they were to say Vigilance was crutch for bad warriors who can't hold threat? If they were to say Hammer of Righteous 'dumbed' the game down because Paladins already excelled at AE tanking? It's just as silly as complaing about our one Rune in my eyes.

And as far as those that are frustrated at the fact that any DK spec can tank -- that's exactly how Blizzard designed them. There's a rather famous Blue post explaining the reason for the DK design. In that same post they explained how they see the flaws in their other tank designs. And they haven't given up on re-vamping them. They want to make playing a prot warrior more fun... they want to make tanking across the board more fun. I think they've shown that with the changes they've made to Warriors, Druids, and Paladin tanks. And I'm sure we'll see more tank love in the future.

[Lightmgl]

I can partly agree that this rune is a bit overpowered, but at the same time its fairly needed by beginning DK tanks who are struggling to reach uncrittable. Also this rune + the new defense rating sigil would put dk's at about 177 defense rating between two items, which would personally put me in the 580ish defense range while the sigil proc is up.

However when you think about it from blizzards perspective this "bandaid" (they should have just made a rune that was defense rating, and maybe another that is +threat later on) is also one of the easiest things they can manipulate going further. They won't have to itemize 2 handers for tanking they can leave it up to the DK, and if those numbers prove to be out of wack they can easily just change the numbers, which I think they'll end up doing before all is said and done.

I suppose, but they also itemized two handers too as seen by the new crafting ones. They're throwing all this free junk to fix low end DKs (which definitely need it) while buffing the hell out of high end DKs which in my opinion are already the best tanks in the game.

It is possible the defense is not diminishing because it is raw skill and not rating similar to how +dodge and +parry from talents do not diminish either.

Blizzard needs to bite the bullet and completely rebuild this class' tanking from the ground up like they just did with Warrior. They need threat help and less mitigation scaling or it will get out of control very fast. It is a good thing that Frost Presence does not work for jewelry now or it woulda been completely silly combined with the new +defense on the 2 handers allowing armor rings.

And to anyone saying "Oh warriors get defense so easy" yeah, we do. And once we cap it and you cap it its moot. My counter argument is DKs get parry so easily (35-40% good lord). Anyone who thinks shields are even able to put a dent in that advantage has no clue how the game works. Now you've given a class that already has an armor/avoidance advantage the potential to get a much larger one through gear swapping. They now either have to buff the three other tank classes (especially druids), drop DK's avoidance significantly which would murder them at early endgame, or reconstruct the class.

Anyways I may sound a bit bitter but Blizzard is taking an easy way out to a complex problem and it is only going to create more issues instead of fixing them.

[TomHuxley]

The rune is needed. I got epic gloves sitting in the bank I can't use because it puts me under 540. I'm two heroic runs away from my epic chest that I can't use either.

You don't have the defense enchant on your chest, and you have several sockets that could be filled with def gems (drop the +hit gem in your belt for gosh sakes). You could totally be using that gear. Stat balancing is part of the game, and I don't see why DKs should be exempted from it.

I'm confused on how people are equating defense rating to actual skill in tanking.

No one is equating def rating to skill, but understanding how to gear, using the proper gems and enchants to balance your stats DOES require some thought, and DKs don't really have a significantly harder time stat balancing than other tanking classes, and have a much easier time than any tanking class did in TBC. Just last night we did our first Naxx attempt, cleared 2.5 wings (until we got tired) with a single boss wipe, and one of our tanks was a blood-specced DK. He didn't get crit once. Clearly nothing is broken with DKs as they currently are, it's just that a lot of DKs haven't tanked before and don't know, for example, that you often have to ignore socket bonuses to get the stats you need with gems.

How well received would a feral druid be if they were to say Vigilance was crutch for bad warriors who can't hold threat? If they were to say Hammer of Righteous 'dumbed' the game down because Paladins already excelled at AE tanking? It's just as silly as complaing about our one Rune in my eyes.

That's an very poor analogy IMO; if Blizz was going to buff Vigilance or Hammer of Righteous in the next patch I'd be complaining about that too, because neither warriors nor palladins need it. I have no issue with frost presence, I just don't think it needs to be buffed. BTW, this isn't a class "comparison" issue; I take no issue with the druid tanking buffs (and I don't play a druid) because unlike warriors, pallies, and DKs they actually need some changes to their class.

Of course classes do and always will have abilities that make some things easier than they are for other classes, that's the point. The problem with DKs isn't that the class is flawed, it's that there are a disproportionate number of players who have never tanked before trying to do so, and I don't believe the class should be buffed just because the FotM class is proving challenging to people totally new to tanking.

And as far as those that are frustrated at the fact that any DK spec can tank -- that's exactly how Blizzard designed them.

Was anyone upset that every DK spec can tank? If you reread the thread carefully I think the arguement was that some people complained that blood specced DKs don't AE tank as well, and the reply was that there is no reason every spec needs to be equally good at all forms of tanking, just like other tanking classes can spec in to tanking niches.

No one is knocking deathknights, they're a cool class and good tanks. But they aren't broken, so there is no reason to "fix" them, and doing so will almost certainly result in upsetting class balance amongst tanks.

[TomHuxley]

"They're dumbing the game down?" "Giving out free crutches?"

All this does is allow DK's to reach the uncrittable cap more easily.

Yup, except that it's already totally possible to reach uncrittable, so why do it except to make gearing easier for DK tanks than for other tanks? As a warrior my total HP is naturally lower, so I often have to ignore socket bonuses and stack stamina. Pallies have had to stack stam and SBR. Death knights have to stack defense. It's just not a big deal, and giving them extra free armor and def rating is not only pointless, but will actually make them OP, since it frees those enchants and sockets up for agro and/or avoidance stats, when DK tanks are already as good as other classes right now.

Until this patch there are no def rating 2-handers, which means unlike warriors and pallies who can get a tanking sword and tanking shield with points towards the def cap, we get zero from 2 slots. The upside is we need to get a lot more better tanking gear before we can hit that cap.

And druids need good gear to get enough armor, and warriors need good enough gear to have enough health, and...

I had to dps my way into heroics and the like just to get the gear to tank them. THAT is what Blizz is trying to remedy.

So do lots of players in all classes that are tanking for the first time. Also, you could have made/bought more of the crafted gear, which has a ton of def on it. There are multiple solutions, and no one is "entitled" to just start tanking heroics, you should have to work to gear for them.

This also doesn't dumb the game down or make tanking any easier on DK's other than bringing the uncrittable cap more easily within reach. Tanking is still as hard as it ever was.

That's simple incorrect. If you get your defense for free, when defense was the limiting stat for your class, then you are free to use those sockets and enchants to stack stamina, avoidance, and agro stats that you otherwise couldn't. It's a massive buff to DK gear, and it's totally unwarranted, as there are DKs MT 25-man Malygos right now.

Some of you have such a pejorative outlook on changes they make in the game that you make a big fuss over a small matter that may not even affect you.

Class balance issues effect everyone, and massive and unneeded buffs to FotM classes even more so.

[Lightmgl]

Its funny cause we use a DK to tank Sarth +3. He is so superior to all of the other tanks it is disgusting. Threat is a non issue in that fight since you all use cooldowns for the drakes so he is perfect for it.

Hes also tanked enraged faerlina, and I kid you not, has avoided every single hit from her enrage to her death.

Now hes gaining a few thousand points of armor, a few thousand points of health, and possibly some avoidance depending on how he adjusts himself. I believe he is aiming for 70% avoidance raidbuffed combined with avoidance trinkets in some fights to spike up to 75% while using stam trinkets in other fights. Add things like scorpid on top of that and you have a tank rapidly approaching 100% avoidance again and we're only in the earliest tier of raiding.

[Xav]

Death Knights will have to be nerfed so hard after Ulduar is cleared. You wait and see.