Dual Wielding DKs: Demystifying the Myth.

[Fonagor]

Disadvantages:
Fails to provide the most useful buffs/debuffs DKs have to the raid especially

As long as his spec atm is his raidspec, I totally disagree. Because he is providing the 20% melee attackspeed buff - which is according to your WWS the only one in your raid. So your rogue(s), all the other tanks & melee dds must be happy about his raidbuffing!


To Toni (and the rest of his helpers) I just can say that it seems very reliable to me. As a DK Raidmaintank I will try it in today's raid - even if I'm far away from suitable gear.
I just had some testing yesterday in some heroics with my favourite aggro machines and I have not seen a "noticeable" negative difference. (yes I know you can't compare Raids to Heroics - but many people in here feared a chanceless TPS)

You may be chanceless though if you forget that with weaponskill of 1 you won't hit anything... bloody 1h maces

[Satorri]

We've got a dual wield DK DPSer who put out 4800-4900 on Patchwerk. This is just shy of the people breaking 5000 and his gear is much worse.

Well, his gear is nothing to shake a stick at, but he has a very interesting spec. Thanks for sharing, that has given me some nice food for thought.

One thing though, he's far from offering no raid buffing. He offers all a Frost Spec can, with Imp Icy Talons (equivalent of Windfury totem allowing your shamans to drop other things since it has a 100% uptime in most hands), and Horn of Winter (Strength of Earth equivalent, again, shamans can drop something else).

I can see where he went with the heavy dual-wield buff, getting the third disease to crank BCB procs, he has most of the Frost buffs, along with Killing Machine and HB to get some big splashes that way. It's a nice spec, to be sure, very clever.

[Satorri]

Ha ha ha, I did that a few times Fona. =)

I went to tank a heroic HoL and I was trying to figure out why my threat was miserable, until I realized it was my first time using a polearm and my skill was still 270. >.> oops

[Skinzenbonz]

The boss is attacking at 2.0, your autoattacks are at 3.5, so you cannot dodge twice within your own auto-attack window (eg. have two RS opportunities within the one window), which means you would get to use all the RS you earn.

It looks like more times than not the boss will get 2 swings off while you are waiting to swing.

Boss: 0.0
You: 0.0
Boss: 2.0
You: 3.5
Boss: 4.0
Boss: 6.0
You: 7.0
Boss: 8.0
Boss: 10.0
You: 10.5
Boss: 12.0
You: 14.0
Boss: 14.0

[minrog]

My guild's DK tank and I have been talking over DW tanking recently. He DPS's a lot of fights and he enjoys DW combat more than 2 hander combat (with slow swing speed). I want to thank you Tony for posting this even with all the haters out here hehe.

My main concern has to do with gear level. I know DK's scale funky but one of the main goals to have is to be able to fight monsters that are 1 tier of content higher than you are. I know when I was in Tier 6 gear I could swap in a bunch of DPS stuff and roll through H MrT but that didn't make wearing DPS gear on a progression raid a viable option. It's not as critical for the OT/DPS DK but I'd be interested in seeing data beyond curb-stomping Heroics in full Naxx 25 gear if you know what I mean.

I guess the question is even if you can get it working would you then be able to take that Naxx 25 gear and perform well in the Tier 8 25 man? Or do you see it as a plateau where once you reach the proper expertise/hit you're progression raid viable and can start stacking stam/avoidance?

Even if you cannot answer those questions (yet hehe) I'm going to shoot our guy out here to read what you have and see what he thinks. Maybe I'll be able to get some WWS parses from it.

[Krenian]

I guess the question is even if you can get it working would you then be able to take that Naxx 25 gear and perform well in the Tier 8 25 man? Or do you see it as a plateau where once you reach the proper expertise/hit you're progression raid viable and can start stacking stam/avoidance?

I really wouldn't see why not. The cornerstone of this build seems to be around getting rid of the expertise cap. The number really stays the same so as long as you hover around that number (preferably above, but no more than 10% under imo), you can increase your avoidance by replacing the gear and putting in more avoidance and mitigation. The biggest problem with this idea is the following:

If there are no gear upgrades that will push up defense but keep the expertise cap, or push up stamina and strength but not have expertise on them, come uldaar, this will pretty much Pigeonhole the spec into one set of gear only with minimal upgrades. I don't know about you but not getting any gear after getting all the gear needed for the spec is not my idea of fun nor will it be as good if the bosses start ramping up in damage and have some funky buffs like in Sunwell where they had more hit. The gear will have to progress the same way as other gear will, and we have to hope Blizzard continues putting plate pieces with expertise, strength, stam and avoidance stats that are superior to what we have in the listing so far.

If they don't, that alone may effectively end this debate: Although viable, you keep the same gear and at one point, your gear will be too outdated to do the job you're supposed to do. Which will then end this debate about dual wielding and rank two handers superior in every way due to it's scalability that it will have.

And I'm running 4 hours of sleep and still in shellshock mode from this last exam so if this made no sense, just say "Tony, damnit, make some sense please!" and i'll review it while at work with a bit more rest.

[Fonagor]

No it made sense Toni

In my eyes this discussion is a little bit early and in the same way worthless because Expertise is the best way for improve TPS - not just for DKs but also Warriors. So it would make no sense not to introduce -at least - some random parts - otherwise we won't simply be able to stay tuned in thread anyway - so there is maybe even a chance to see it on t8.

Well I'm lookin forward to my first raid as dual in a few minutes.

[Satorri]

Well technically hit and expertise are on equal footing for dps these days, the same rating requirement per % for each. For tanks on the other hand, until you pass that 5.4% mark of dodge neglect it's double duty next to hit rating.

If you're dpsing from the front I'm going to go farm up one of those threat drop trinkets and let you tank. =)

[Krenian]

Well technically hit and expertise are on equal footing for dps these days, the same rating requirement per % for each. For tanks on the other hand, until you pass that 5.4% mark of dodge neglect it's double duty next to hit rating.

If you're dpsing from the front I'm going to go farm up one of those threat drop trinkets and let you tank. =)

Or be a Night Elf and bloody ghetto vanish.

...damn guild leader killed me for shits and giggles that way...we had to stop the Heroic AN because everyone was laughing so hard....cept me. -.-

[lyd]

The point I'm holding to at the moment is, dual wielding will not result in horrible death and drastically increased damage taken, but at the same time, I haven't seen a smart spec/gear set up that makes dual wielding offer something particularly valuable that you can't get with a 2-hander.

i think it comes down to preference. if the DW threads have shown anything so far, it's that there is a path to DW tanking that is every bit as viable as 2h tanking. you sacrifice avoidance to stack expertise, but expertise offers mitigation -and- threat by reducing parry/dodge and consequently parry-hasted attacks. so on a point-for-point basis, the advantage goes to expertise, since it increases both threat and mitigation.

here's another good way to look at it:

Expertise: 32.79 = -1% dodge/parry
dodge: 39.35 = +1% dodge
parry: 49.18 = +1% parry

(numbers taken from wowwiki@lv80)

if a boss has 14.25% chance to parry, and 32.79 expertise = a 1% reduction in boss parry chance, that means every 32.79 expertise rating reduces the total average amount of parry hasted attacks you will suffer throughout a bossfight by roughly 7% (.01/.1425). now in terms of how much real damage over time this actually prevents, you would have to calculate an indivual boss's dps, and then calculate his dps given whatever amount of expertise the tank has. i'm not sure how well this washes out with how much damage would be prevented by just stacking pure avoidance in the place of that expertise, but consider that expertise is increasing your TPS also: dodge or parry are not. so even if expertise is less effective mitigation per point than dodge or parry, it is still a more effective stat -overall- because it provides increased TPS as well. on the same note, expertise is -still- more effective per point than +hit after the dodge cap, because it is reducing parry-hasted attacks as well.

also consider that reducing parry-hasted attacks reduces the likelihood of massive damage spikes. so even if avoidance were to reduce more damage over a longer period of time, the likelihood of experiencing a tank-killing damage spike is reduced more predictably by expertise.

all that being said, the inherent benefits of expertise as opposed to pure avoidance make up for the trade-off between avoidance and expertise that happens as a person gears for DW tanking instead of 2h. doesn't make one or the other better: but the nature of what expertise does for a tank really makes it a wash when all is said and done, and therefore making the style choice come down to gear level and preference, barring some ground-breaking wws reports from people who are putting these ideas to the test.

[GravityDK]

It looks like more times than not the boss will get 2 swings off while you are waiting to swing.
Boss: 14.0

Well done mate, thanks for working that out. I agree.

[Krenian]

Fight starts

2H with 3.5 speed:

[0.0]You swing, hit the mob.
[0.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up.
[2.0]Mob swings, you parry again, RS does not light up as it's already up.
[3.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[4.0]Mobs swings, you dodge, RS lights up
[6.0]Mobs swings, you parry, RS does not light up as it's already up.
[7.0]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[8.0]Mob swings, you get hit
[10.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up
[10.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[12.0]Mob swings, you dodge, RS lights up
[14.0]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[14.0]Mob swings, you get hit
[16.0]Mob swings, mob misses, RS lights up
[17.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation
[18.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up
[20.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS does not light up as it's already up

Number of RS used: 6
Potential RS wasted: 2.

Dual wielding with a 2.5 weapon:

[0.0]You swing, hit the mob.
[0.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up.
[2.0]Mob swings, you parry again, RS does not light up as it's already up.
[2.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[4.0]Mobs swings, you dodge, RS lights up
[5.0]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[6.0]Mobs swings, you parry
[7.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[8.0]Mob swings, you get hit
[10.0]You swing, no RS as you got hit
[12.0]Mob swings, you dodge, RS lights up
[12.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[14.0]Mob swings, you get hit
[15.0]You swing, No RS as you got hit
[16.0]Mob swings, mob misses, RS lights up
[17.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[18.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up
[20.0]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[20.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up


Number of RS used: 6
Potential RS wasted: 1

So...one less potentially wasted RS, but the same amount of RS used. So Runestriking is not more often in a dual wielding build. I am corrected. However, the potential Runestrikes that could of been wasted is lower with a dual wield build as you're getting more strikes in so you can throw in more RS.

I posted this on page two for people to look at the swing speeds. This pretty much shows the typical time that a mob could hit you with dual wielding and two handers, and what you'd be doing per swing. But always nice for people to deduct the same reasoning as well. Means people are actually agreeing with the stuff I wrote. Woo!

[Lightmgl]

Well, his gear is nothing to shake a stick at, but he has a very interesting spec. Thanks for sharing, that has given me some nice food for thought.

One thing though, he's far from offering no raid buffing. He offers all a Frost Spec can, with Imp Icy Talons (equivalent of Windfury totem allowing your shamans to drop other things since it has a 100% uptime in most hands), and Horn of Winter (Strength of Earth equivalent, again, shamans can drop something else).

I can see where he went with the heavy dual-wield buff, getting the third disease to crank BCB procs, he has most of the Frost buffs, along with Killing Machine and HB to get some big splashes that way. It's a nice spec, to be sure, very clever.

Oh I forgot to mention the reason he doesn't provide anything is we have a 100% DK tank who always has the attack speed buff and horn. He must have a different spec atm for something else. His change takes away Unholy Aura and Anti Magic Zone which we really utilize alot for speeding up the zone and doing Sartharion with adds nor does he get Hysteria which is crazy powerful.

I guess a better way to put it is he gives up abilities that have no alternate classes for abilities that can be easily gotten through any spec of shaman or a dk tank.

I just thought you guys might like some actual numbers. Like I said his gear feels like it could use work for this, he feels he could do more DPS as 2h at the moment. He told me the whole build relies alot on haste, hit, and crit to proc the guaranteed HB crits. To optimize the build he would ultimately want to be able to proc just as fast as his runes for HB respawn.

[Blueduck3285]

I would like to say thank you to those who have put forth great thought and time into this discussion. I love that people are willing to break down the walls of old concepts and willing to try new things dispite the nay sayers.

There is alot of great information in there and I would love to put it into practice. The hardest part for me is getting the gear to properly put DW through some tests. As far as heroics, even without alot of expertise and hit, I am very comfortable swaping between 2H and 2 1H. I just use them situational like you would any set of gear you have, casters, I love to tear them up with 1Hs. When I get the gear together I would love to stay 1H fulltime. For me, its something new, yeah 2h tanking is new too, but the idea behind 2 1H for me atleasts has been running in my head for a few years now.

Satorri, I have wondered myself if RS can hit off off-hand as well. I will chank up the target dummy and see what I can find.

[Nightdemon]

Something that could majorly affect DWing in the next patch:

Frost

* Howling Blast had its cooldown removed.


That's going to completely remove the need for any possible obliterates in a rotation (ie, Rime procs, HB costs no runes, Frost n Unholy rune left un-used and HB on CD).

Also a pretty big buff to Frost DKs in general tbh

DW Rotation: IT - PS - BS - BS - HB - HB - HB - HB.... Add a Rime proc into that and you have another HB ^^ Also FSs / RSs... Alot less chances to parry right there :< Looking even more tempting as of next patch tbh :P Gonna have to decide between 2h Blood spec or DWing (both tanking) >.<

[lyd]

Something that could majorly affect DWing in the next patch:

Frost

* Howling Blast had its cooldown removed.


That's going to completely remove the need for any possible obliterates in a rotation (ie, Rime procs, HB costs no runes, Frost n Unholy rune left un-used and HB on CD).

Also a pretty big buff to Frost DKs in general tbh

DW Rotation: IT - PS - BS - BS - HB - HB - HB - HB.... Add a Rime proc into that and you have another HB ^^ Also FSs / RSs... Alot less chances to parry right there :< Looking even more tempting as of next patch tbh :P Gonna have to decide between 2h Blood spec or DWing (both tanking) >.<

that's a good point. removing obliterate from your rotation removes -yet another- parry-able attack from your rotation. fascinating...

[Satorri]

Oh good god, I want dual specs, NOW!

The destruction I could dish out with my frost spec and no HB CDs......

[Krenian]

That is one scary change if it goes live. That could single handedly give Frost the best AoE potential by just hitting Deathchill after you IT, PS, Pestilence kerblam, 10934972384 crits of Howling Blast.

This just made things open up greatly.

[nips]

To the op. Very nice post, but you are tweaking the numbers to favor dw. example:

So, to sum up this section, we're looking at:
Warrior = 7.4%
Bear = 12.8%
DK (2-hand Unholy) = 9.3%
DK (dual wield Frost) = 8.5%

You realy cant do this comparing since an unholy tank will use different abilities then a frost tank making it a false impression that dw takes less damage. When it's in fact the frost spec that takes less damage from parries and not dw vs 2h.

It's nice to see people tanking with dw, but my main grief with it is that you have to be frost spec. So you are basically canseling 2 specs "just for looks"(yeah i know thats streaching it, but it's my personal opinion). If you are going frost then sure knock yourself out, but as a unholy tank there is not enough runic power or talents to support dw.

There was also someone saying that all dk's attacks are yellow. Do you have a log of this? Personaly 20% of my damage comes from white swings. As an example: when you use DnD 3 runes go poof and its easy to end up with 3-4 sec of white swings before any runes are awailable.

Mmmm, i might come off as very anti dw, but i'm realy not. In fact i can see dw pull ahead if you get alot of avoidance. Atm i got 60ish% avoidance as unholy and with a dw frost spec i might get it to 65%(+3%miss and def on weps). That's a big difference....

[Fonagor]

Spec:

Go with a frost spec honestly. No offense, but you sorely need the mitigation talents in frost to pull this off properly. This is because you could potentially take 50% more damage if you are very unlucky (Pray to the gods you’re not.)

Sorry but it is said already in the first post, that DW simply prefer Frost. All the discussions were also based on that Specc. If you want to compare a Blood DW Spec - feel free.

80% of your damage is yellow - so for me this is quite alot, especially compared to the 60% of my dual (and he is wielding still a blue Offhand ) And as far as I remember all of this discussions were based on a single target situation - so there won't be a DnD.

The point that an Unholy 2h DK has more chances to get parried than a Frost 2h I also can't see either. For 2h Frost Dks Obliberate is the better option than HB. (Stil talking about single target) So there remains only Froststrike - but your Deathcoils, Unholy Blight can't be parried either.


No offense meant but I can't really see the point where in this thread numbers were clearly tweaked for favoring Dual.