Dual Wielding DKs: Demystifying the Myth.

[Njordus]

Tony, I love how you argue in one post that you'll be Runestriking all day (which you won't be doing significantly more than with a 2h due to RP) and so you won't get parried, then in the next post defend being forced to stack so much expertise as being superior mitigation because now bossses won't parry you.


You can't have it both ways.

(By the way, while DW you will actually have a significantly higher proportion of MH attacks NOT be runestriked than you do while using a 2her. )

These threads are tiring. Get over it.

[visualdeity]

Never mind the fact that a number of Blue posts have basically said they want DK's to have the option but they dont like it and will pretty much work to make sure its not the optimal solution to tanking or dps.

No. Sorry to sound snarky, but I'm getting frustrated with this misinformation being spread everywhere I look.

Exact quote from Ghostcrawler: "The design is that 2h and DW are about equal." GC has said they aren't going to prop DW up, it's true, but that's because they don't want DW to become clearly better (once gear scales up), because they're "about equal". At the same time, they don't want 2h to be clearly better, because they're "about equal".

Blizzard has been very clear on this matter, yet somehow misinformation is being spread. The goal is to keep both styles on par with each other, so that a reasonable player could choose to do either. They're not going to bother buffing DW if 2h is 1% better, but nor are they going to nerf it if DW is 1% better (exception: they might nerf it if they feel gear scaling will widen that gap to an unacceptable amount, but it won't be because of the current difference).

Again, I'm sorry for kind of tearing into you, but this misinformation you repeated needs to stop. The sooner the better.

[Xav]

Diminishing returns isn't on those stats.

The best argument you can probably give though as to put more weight in favor of DW tanking, is that you can use two runes (especially the amazing new defense/stam rune) rather than one.

You also need to compare your expertise gear set stat totals to a traditional avoidance gearset that doesn't focus on, or care about, expertise.

[visualdeity]

The best argument you can probably give though as to put more weight in favor of DW tanking, is that you can use two runes (especially the amazing new defense/stam rune) rather than one.

Unfortunately, the new runeforge is 2h only, unless it's been changed and MMO-Champion hasn't mentioned it in an update. You can stack swordbreaking, but that adds up to the same effect as swordshattering anyway. The runeforge stacking argument does wonders for DPS, because you can go dual-crusader, or crusader/razorice, or whatever, but for a tank, you'll come out to the same effect as you'd have with a 2h runeforge.

Which hopefully would mean that, at the very least, we'll get a 1h version of gargoyle that has half the effect, but I doubt it, since the new enchant is supposed to help 2h tanks hit the def cap without the help from tank weapons.

[Satorri]

Oh so much business while I haven't been checking.

Hurmeli, your contribution is about as intelligent as it is supported. Please don't bother posting on a discussion if you aren't going to offer something to the discussion.

Gravity, for 2-hands and Rune Strikes:
Remember our 60 second window, with a 3.5 sec swing speed, we get a whole 17 swings, while the boss (2.0 sec swing speed) gets 30 attacks. If our DK has a combined avoidance of 50% then statistically he'll avoid 15 proc'ing 15 possible Rune Strikes. Due to the long slow swing speed for the DK the timing can frequently be inopportune when the possibility procs. If you parry right after you auto-attack, you'll have 3.5 sec until that RS gets used. In fact the only way in which you could use every last proc would be if you parried perfectly uniformly on every other attack, if ANY attacks get dodged/parried twice in a row you will lose an opportunity. I made an assumption of only half usable which may be a little strict, but it won't be far from the truth. With Rune Strike there is another feature we could stand to clarify, I don't know if anyone has. Will it only fire on main hand swings? If it fires on off-hand swings, does it use off-hand instant weapon damage?

Lyd, I don't understand why you think dual wielding will offer less TPS from weapon attacks? I've never seen this in my dps tests. Even without over-hit stacking to improve white damage, dual wielding noticeably increases white damage, enough to counter the drop in weapon-based damage. That being said, I only generally like to dual wield with my DK to get the benefit of additional procs, etc. I've seen it used just fine with Blood and Unholy, but I usually only use it for Frost DPS.

For the rest, there are some somewhat out-dated concepts about tanking gear. Right now, in my tanking gear, I have 6% worth of hit, 4.5% dodge/parry neglect (which has dropped a bit as I traded in some of my expertise gear for higher level gear that didn't have it), and 50% avoidance (against a boss) before Blade Barrier or trinkets. I have 25k armor and 28.3k health unbuffed, in frost presence. The gear is entirely just the best I've gotten so far, and there is a LOT of gear options on the same level to allow tanks to get the same level of protection by trading some values around between hit, expertise, dodge, and parry rating, along with defense. Taking gear that is heavier on expertise is not going to leave you without avoidance, though it will reduce it by a small measure. If you question that, go check Tony's gear set he put together on WoWhead.

Also, like Tony said, this isn't an attempt to say dual wielding is better, it is simply an attempt to demonstrate it is more feasible than people would have you believe. Blizz's exact sentiment on the matter was that they didn't want DK's to be required to dual wield tanking weapons, ever. The new glyph is designed to do just that. 25 defense (not rating, it's with about 136 defense rating) to allow you to always use a 2-hander, even when you're fresh to 80.

The point I'm holding to at the moment is, dual wielding will not result in horrible death and drastically increased damage taken, but at the same time, I haven't seen a smart spec/gear set up that makes dual wielding offer something particularly valuable that you can't get with a 2-hander. Using more Rune Strike possibilities is nice, but not grounds enough for me to want to.

[lyd]

*I* am both intellectual AND honest.

Slow Weapon & Deep Wounds -- Math Challenge

This thread took on the question and 1) Worked it out via math and 2) had folks try it in the not so real world and confirm it.

back to you

yes. well done. you just pointed out exactly what i said was the case. there has been plenty of in-game testing to confirm the deep wounds question, as the link you posted shows. there has not been plenty of in-game testing on the question of DW tanking. so comparing the deep wounds question to the DW question is not a fair comparison.

i apologize for calling your comparison intellectually dishonest. that would mean you knowingly made an unfair comparison to win an argument. it appears that you actually had no idea that your comparison was bad, so you weren't being intellectually dishonest. my apologies.

but just so you don't make the same mistake twice, in order to refute my point, you would have to show evidence that there has been a reasonable amount of in-game testing that repeatedly shows DW tanking falling behind 2h tanking, even with the correct gear setup.

to borrow a phrase, back to you.

[Satorri]

Njordus, your negative attitude is suppressive to communal intelligence. If you want to be involved in these discussions, offer some meaningful data, or a well-structured representation for your point.

Otherwise, kindly see your way out.

[lyd]

satorri: regarding your experience with 1h weapon attacks and TPS: do you have any way to post your numbers? the smaller base weapon damage on 1h weapons would intuitively lead to less damage from weapon-based attacks and therefore less threat. but if your experience has shown otherwise, i would love to see the numbers, since i intend to test the DW-expertise build as soon as gear permits.

EDIT: are you saying the additional white damage makes up for the lower damage from weapon attacks? that would definitely make sense. trying out this DW build is looking better and better...

[Krenian]

Tony, I love how you argue in one post that you'll be Runestriking all day (which you won't be doing significantly more than with a 2h due to RP) and so you won't get parried, then in the next post defend being forced to stack so much expertise as being superior mitigation because now bossses won't parry you.

Directly attacking me to prove a point isn't the grandest way to do things. If you wanted to bring up a point, you could of just said 'Tony, you said one thing in one thread, and then say another thing in another thread, I'm a bit confused as to where you stand on this' instead of taking such a forceful and attacking attack.

It is true however that RP will become an issue. But in a situation where you can constantly build RP, you will throw in more Runestrikes with a weapon which swings faster. This simply is the fact that there's no cooldown on Runestrikes which means the following scenario:

Fight starts

2H with 3.5 speed:

[0.0]You swing, hit the mob.
[0.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up.
[2.0]Mob swings, you parry again, RS does not light up as it's already up.
[3.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[4.0]Mobs swings, you dodge, RS lights up
[6.0]Mobs swings, you parry, RS does not light up as it's already up.
[7.0]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[8.0]Mob swings, you get hit
[10.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up
[10.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[12.0]Mob swings, you dodge, RS lights up
[14.0]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[14.0]Mob swings, you get hit
[16.0]Mob swings, mob misses, RS lights up
[17.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation
[18.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up
[20.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS does not light up as it's already up

Number of RS used: 6
Potential RS wasted: 2.

Dual wielding with a 2.5 weapon:

[0.0]You swing, hit the mob.
[0.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up.
[2.0]Mob swings, you parry again, RS does not light up as it's already up.
[2.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[4.0]Mobs swings, you dodge, RS lights up
[5.0]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[6.0]Mobs swings, you parry
[7.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[8.0]Mob swings, you get hit
[10.0]You swing, no RS as you got hit
[12.0]Mob swings, you dodge, RS lights up
[12.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[14.0]Mob swings, you get hit
[15.0]You swing, No RS as you got hit
[16.0]Mob swings, mob misses, RS lights up
[17.5]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[18.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up
[20.0]You swing with RS lit up, removing RS from the rotation.
[20.0]Mob swings, you parry, RS lights up


Number of RS used: 6
Potential RS wasted: 1

So...one less potentially wasted RS, but the same amount of RS used. So Runestriking is not more often in a dual wielding build. I am corrected. However, the potential Runestrikes that could of been wasted is lower with a dual wield build as you're getting more strikes in so you can throw in more RS.

However your last point confuses me. What is your point that you're trying to make? Expertise acts as a threat enhancer as well as a mitigation stat due to the fact you are reducing the chances of getting parry-gibbed. That works for both dual wielding and two handers. Furthermore, Runestrike never was part of my argument when it came to stacking expertise. Reducing the chances of getting parried by a mob was. That was always the issue that dual wielding had and you have to reduce that chance so it actually can stand toe to toe with two handers.

Runestrike has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with Expertise nor have I ever linked it to Expertise in any fashion. Expertise solely reduces your parry-gib chances from both weapons and is a defensive stat if you think of it as a threat increase (lowers the mobs chance to dodge/parry your white hits) and a mitigation stat (Lowers the chance of getting parry gibbed and the chance of getting hit in the face by another attack)

You can't have it both ways.

Uh...have what both ways?

- Increase my Expertise as it acts as both a threat enhancement stat and a mitigation stat? Check, yes it does.

- Runestrikes being used more often? Well let's see. My above example, you would need 60 RP to swing with Runestrike every time I said it would. Let's go with the following rotation:

IT > PS > BS > BS > HB

Now that's 10, 10, 10, 10, 15. That's 55 RP. Let's say IT is glyphed. That goes to 15. That's 60. Exclude the fact that in the Frost talent mentioned above you will get RP by using more abilities, you're already at the 60 required RP to use RS as a dump. This however removes FS from your attacks as potential hits. The thing here is come 3.0.8, with the 200% modifier, RS > FS for threat. Also, the FS glyph will lower the cost of FS by a bit which may be plausible to put it in a rotation. That's more speculation than I need to go into but I think I proved the point that you can and will be RSing every time it can come up in an ideal situation.

Alright, now say you needed 80 RP. This is where it might get tight, agreed. This is where we have to see if the RP gained by doing that rotation above can sustain it. Worse comes to worse is that the RP from your second rotation lights Runestrike a bit late, which would cause RS not to be hit as often as it could be. It still is as much as a two hander which should convince you, (I hope), that RS can be, in this situation, kept up as much as a two hander will.

(By the way, while DW you will actually have a significantly higher proportion of MH attacks NOT be runestriked than you do while using a 2her. )

My above example proves that this is not the case. Unless I went wrong in my numbers, which is plausible as i'm very weak when it comes to the math of things. Feel free to correct me.

These threads are tiring. Get over it.

If you're tired of them, ignore the threads. I'm not forcing your hand to come look at the thread. You're forcing yourself to come and discuss points with me. I'm sorry if this is not what you like to talk about but this thread is meant for pontential discussion of an idea people have. Do I believe it? I used to. I'm not so sure anymore. But the fact remains that that the idea is listed and has some merits to look into.

[Satorri]

Lyd, I don't have any available WWS for dual wielding, but when I was dpsing with dual wielding it was a shift in the damage sources, like you were saying.

You do a good shred more melee dps, though your weapon-based damage suffers a bit. You can also play into the value that dual wielding offers. My favorite example is Killing Machine. The comparison between a frost build with a 2-hander, or one built around dual wielding is that you trade a fraction of regular Frost Strike, Blood Strike, Oblit, and Plague Strike (though that's really small) damage. In exchange you significantly increase your functional crit rate on Howling Blast, Frost Strike, and IT, which all get well buffed by Frost talents.

Like I said above though, I'm a bit uncertain about good tank builds that can support that sort of mechanism, at least not before we get our baseline survival buff. So, I'm a little iffy on whether or not there is a good reason beyond getting the extra survival stats and getting a few more Rune Strikes to dual wield. I actually almost prefer fewer Rune Strikes since it allows me to use RP on more things. For Unholy I want UB up all the time and my DC's hit hard. For Frost, Frost Strike is glorious damage. And Blood, we're back to tastey DC's, though that spec works wonderfully with hard hitting RS's.

[Njordus]

Njordus, your negative attitude is suppressive to communal intelligence. If you want to be involved in these discussions, offer some meaningful data, or a well-structured representation for your point.

Otherwise, kindly see your way out.

Offering biased (he even said 'omg DW is coolzorz') misinformation and fuzzy math is not helpful whatsoever. If you don't like being corrected, don't post faulty logic.

It is quite easily concluded that as DW you will have more MH attacks that are not RS'd than with a 2h.

I've said it before : you need to prove that DWing is better than 2h tanking for there to be a real argument. Proving viability is not only blatantly subjective and moot, but is also not something that should be found on a site such as tankspot. Prove optimal performance, or prove nothing.

[Krenian]

Offering biased (he even said 'omg DW is coolzorz') misinformation and fuzzy math is not helpful whatsoever. If you don't like being corrected, don't post faulty logic.

Wow..talk about taking something out of context and shoving it down my throat. I was saying that a lot of people think it's cooler to dual wield instead of using two handers. And it's generally accepted that yes, it is. I was just stating it to make a point. Calling me biased becuase of that is pretty brutal of you and very insulting. Not once have I called you names throughout this but you don't seem to stop attacking me in some form or another. If you really are that bothered by the things I write, simply stop going and reading my information. Skip over it. I offer insight. I do not shove information down your throat. Seriously..

And there is nothing wrong with me theorizing an idea that has merit. And this has merit because I did prove that it may not be better to dual wield, but that it's plausible and there can be merit to the idea. I never stated ONCE that Dual wielding is better. I said that it's plausible. I also said that it's got merits. But in NO place did I say:

Dual wield is better than two handers in every and any scenario.

[Njordus]

Nobody ever "personally attacked" you, and you shouldn't defend your argument with whining about something silly like that.

You think DW is really cool and that's fine, if you play because you want to look cool or whatever you should go to the wow boards.

You are trying to throw numbers around and play within very specific examples of a fantasy WoW (fantasy world of a fantasy world, odd). You should post things making proclomations of performance that go against what is already known if you aren't ready for criticism and counter-arguments.

Kinda just sounds like you are butt hurt that your grand "demystifying" thread is being argued against. :-/

[visualdeity]

Nobody ever "personally attacked" you, and you shouldn't defend your argument with whining about something silly like that.

You think DW is really cool and that's fine, if you play because you want to look cool or whatever you should go to the wow boards.

First: you did actually personally attack him, by saying "These threads are tiring. Get over it."

Second: at no point did the OP say he wants to dual wield because it's cool. He said that he thought about it for that reason, but that's it. The rest of it is trying to determine if dual wielding can be made to work.

Sorry, but it's not just the OP being defensive. You are being overly hostile in this thread.

[Krenian]

Nobody ever "personally attacked" you, and you shouldn't defend your argument with whining about something silly like that.

Okay, whatever you have to tell yourself to justify your actions

You think DW is really cool and that's fine, if you play because you want to look cool or whatever you should go to the wow boards.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. You know what? Not needed in a thread that's discussing theory about game mechanics.

You are trying to throw numbers around and play within very specific examples of a fantasy WoW (fantasy world of a fantasy world, odd). You should post things making proclomations of performance that go against what is already known if you aren't ready for criticism and counter-arguments.

You have yet to counter any argument and any point in this thread. The last couple of answers you've given have been nothing but disdain and rejection about the discussion. Furthermore, I threw numbers that are quite plausible and you haven't even bothered talking back towards them. I'm still waiting for your facts. I'm still waiting for your counter arguments. Half of us are watching this conversation and still waiting for your proof. You don't wanna bring the proof ahead, that's your idea. But seriously..stop trolling the thread then and get out. You don't wanna give any information nor proof? At least I tried putting up a scenario to argue your point. At least I tried to do something that would allow you to see where the idea was coming from and what gearset would be needed. At least I tried to do a lot so you guys could potentially see that the idea may have merit. But of course, I didn't put any proof or any of the sort No, I just pulled that gearset out of nowhere. Or I pulled the attack speeds of weapons out of the air too.

Kinda just sounds like you are butt hurt that your grand "demystifying" thread is being argued against. :-/

I wouldn't mind if this was true, however right now, you're not arguing, you're trolling. And frankly, I've seen better trolls from the WoW forum to be honest. If you don't like the information, if you don't agree with it, either maturely post ideas that go against the ones spoken in here, or quietly step out and ignore the thread. That easy.

And this is about the nicest I'm going to be with you at this point. I've tried to be polite, and I've tried to be courteous but you're really not making this any easier and with that, I'm just going to say that the ball's in your court. I'm willing to sit here and talk with you about differences and opinions, but I'm only going to do it in a mature manner and not say that you are 'butthurt' because i'm arguing your point.

C wut eye did thaer?

[lyd]

Lyd, I don't have any available WWS for dual wielding, but when I was dpsing with dual wielding it was a shift in the damage sources, like you were saying.

You do a good shred more melee dps, though your weapon-based damage suffers a bit. You can also play into the value that dual wielding offers. My favorite example is Killing Machine. The comparison between a frost build with a 2-hander, or one built around dual wielding is that you trade a fraction of regular Frost Strike, Blood Strike, Oblit, and Plague Strike (though that's really small) damage. In exchange you significantly increase your functional crit rate on Howling Blast, Frost Strike, and IT, which all get well buffed by Frost talents.

Like I said above though, I'm a bit uncertain about good tank builds that can support that sort of mechanism, at least not before we get our baseline survival buff. So, I'm a little iffy on whether or not there is a good reason beyond getting the extra survival stats and getting a few more Rune Strikes to dual wield. I actually almost prefer fewer Rune Strikes since it allows me to use RP on more things. For Unholy I want UB up all the time and my DC's hit hard. For Frost, Frost Strike is glorious damage. And Blood, we're back to tastey DC's, though that spec works wonderfully with hard hitting RS's.

you aren't kidding about DW dps and effective crit. i respec'd into killing machine and even with only @21% baseline crit (before talents) i am steamrolling @level npc's with virtually no downtime. the 50% chance to proc a guranteed crit on the next IT, FS, or HB is unbelievably effective.

i can see your point about rune strikes, particularly if you are tanking as unholy. in my experience, as frost, it isn't too awfully difficult to keep enough runepower on-hand to take advantage of your RS procs if you use the IT glyph. you can also take advantage of the runepower-generating talents if it affects your rotation. it looks like RS is really going to be our go-to instant for big threat so i would say that you'll want to be giving it RP priority once the threat change goes live.

[Satorri]

Offering biased (he even said 'omg DW is coolzorz') misinformation and fuzzy math is not helpful whatsoever. If you don't like being corrected, don't post faulty logic.

It is quite easily concluded that as DW you will have more MH attacks that are not RS'd than with a 2h.

I've said it before : you need to prove that DWing is better than 2h tanking for there to be a real argument. Proving viability is not only blatantly subjective and moot, but is also not something that should be found on a site such as tankspot. Prove optimal performance, or prove nothing.

Ok, last chance before I will ritualistically ignore you. You have not corrected anything here, you've made a statement
"It is quite easily concluded that as DW you will have more MH attacks that are not RS'd than with a 2h."
With no supporting evidence, or information.


Prove your point, or disprove mine, simply posting that I am clearly wrong is nothing constructive, nor insightful.

And seriously, what crawled up your butt? Why do you feel the need to come in here with that attitude?

[Kazeyonoma]

oh hai tony! ;]

glad to be of help, let me know if this ever works out for you, might be something that defies the status quo and be an alternative to the DK lifestyle. =D

[Lightmgl]

We've got a dual wield DK DPSer who put out 4800-4900 on Patchwerk. This is just shy of the people breaking 5000 and his gear is much worse. Now heres my analysis of it:

Advantages:
DPS seems competitive in endgame gear

Disadvantages:
Fails to provide the most useful buffs/debuffs DKs have to the raid especially
Requires very specific gear to do competitive DPS, 2h DKs have way more flexibility in upgrades

The World of Warcraft Armory
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
View the patchwerk death in the WWSes, his named is Clownd. For anyone who is curious as to what he may be doing, I believe he does the Killing Machine + HB combo mentioned. I'd say it was completely viable if it wasn't for the lack of raid utility. You trade the potential buffs/debuffs of a blood or unholy DK for absolutely nothing and the gear requirements are so strict that he feels like he should go back to 2h now until he can break a much higher hit/crit %.

As for tanking I'd see no reason to do it personally, why decrease your survivability even slightly for something that shows no significant positive gain? It seems like you'd gain way more using that 78 expertise 2h mace from naxx and the new defense runeforge while switching off other defense pieces for more armor/avoidance in rings and cloaks.

[GravityDK]

Gravity, for 2-hands and Rune Strikes:
Remember our 60 second window, with a 3.5 sec swing speed, we get a whole 17 swings, while the boss (2.0 sec swing speed) gets 30 attacks. If our DK has a combined avoidance of 50% then statistically he'll avoid 15 proc'ing 15 possible Rune Strikes. Due to the long slow swing speed for the DK the timing can frequently be inopportune when the possibility procs. If you parry right after you auto-attack, you'll have 3.5 sec until that RS gets used. In fact the only way in which you could use every last proc would be if you parried perfectly uniformly on every other attack, if ANY attacks get dodged/parried twice in a row you will lose an opportunity. I made an assumption of only half usable which may be a little strict, but it won't be far from the truth.

How you came to that view makes sense now, thanks.
However only 'half usable' doesn't seem right. I'd think you'd get to use all the RS opportunities.
The boss is attacking at 2.0, your autoattacks are at 3.5, so you cannot dodge twice within your own auto-attack window (eg. have two RS opportunities within the one window), which means you would get to use all the RS you earn.

With Rune Strike there is another feature we could stand to clarify, I don't know if anyone has. Will it only fire on main hand swings? If it fires on off-hand swings, does it use off-hand instant weapon damage?

Good question, haven't seen data on this either.

The point I'm holding to at the moment is, dual wielding will not result in horrible death and drastically increased damage taken, but at the same time, I haven't seen a smart spec/gear set up that makes dual wielding offer something particularly valuable that you can't get with a 2-hander.

I agree. This is one of the better maths analysis on DW I've seen, it's a good contribution to the debate. I manage this thread on deathknight.info, btw, and have linked back here specifically saying its good content.