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Thread: Death Knights ill-suited to MT?

  1. #81
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    I've about offtanked and MT'd every fight in the current raids. It's not really that DK's are better or worse suited to one then the other just where your guild needs you to go to get the job done. Deathknights like feral druids in several situations are going to be the tank that, if your guild isn't swapping out a tank for a healer/dps for a boss, just swaps some gear and a pressence then goes to town with the Raid damage. In most situations they will be the tank that can deal the most damage while NOT tanking and isn't sacrificing anything to also apply their raid buff while doing it.

    I don't see myself as becoming this monstrous avoidance beast that Lightmgl beleives the class will become, or delegated to only MT for certain situations that some DK's are being forced into by their guilds. I tanked as a protection warrior for years before becoming a deathknight and see situations on my DK at times where I wish I had my warrior abilities but do love the complex rune cool downs and runic power system. If your guilds "MT" is a button bashing guy he may be able to do OK depending how your guild is... IF your guilds DK "MT" is a button bashing guy then you're out of luck and will constantly fail encounters becuase his threat and survivability will be terrible.

    A skilled/experienced tank player behind a DK is going to be a very good MT for a guild and yes will be as much of a monster as the guild backing him allows him to be. Current raid content is easy enough where there should never be an issue where having a DK at the MT spot on an encounter will hold you back. The same can be said about a skilled/experienced druid, warrior, or Pally... All can be monstrous tanks for your guild if they itemize right and are good at paying attention to their surroundings as well as abilities.

  2. #82
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    Dec 2008
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    Seems alot of tanks are having trouble accepting DKs, like as someone said a new kid on the block. This is happening in dps circles as well as classes who were poor dps before (ret paladins, Moonkins etc) are being more and more in demand over some pure dps classes (Hunters, Mages, Rogues, Warlocks). I know it was a fair bit angering to have my warlocks role as main Debuffing class taken away, as well as being almost equaled in dps by a non pure dps class.

    I tank various heroics on my DK alt and I do fairly well (following the sterotype its my first tanking experience). Personally I think if the tank can prove he's up to the job then he deserves a tanking position, regardless of his class. Just as dps should get there spot if they prove them selves compitent and good dps. Its an issue of having specialized roles being slowly taken away.

  3. #83
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    Aug 2008
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    You take the player, not the class.

    I, the DK, can tank everything in the game just fine. The warrior, paladin, and druid in my guild can also all tank everything just fine. Does each class do a bit better on certain fights and in certain roles? Yes, but it doesn't matter.

    If you're in a more casual guild your "MT" class doesn't matter. You pick your best player and go with them, because they give you the best chance of success regardless of the class.

    If your guild is more on the hardcore-side where skill differences are more blurred, then you start to make class-based decisions. DKs do better on fights that emphasize cooldowns (Gluth, KT, Sarth), and fall behind on fights that are very consistent in their damage output (Patchwerk, Sapph). It is expected you can swap tanks in and out of roles at will because you have more resources available.

  4. #84
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    before i get started, let me say. IMO DKs could MT anything they want to.

    that being said, i find them to be superior offtanks for 2 reasons.

    A: they don't need to be hit to generate rage/mana
    B: they can easily switch to dps when a tank is not needed.

    this means that wile they could MT anything any one else can, they can OT it better.

  5. #85
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    Nov 2008
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    Hello, I'm pretty much new poster but I have been browsing TankSpot forums for about 6 months now .

    I rolled DK to be a tank for my newly formed guild, most of them irl friends, but I've been playing since vanilla wow as a healer and went as far as maexxna in pr-tbc content.

    We've started Naxx(10) about a week ago and I must say that CD management is nothing that bad as long as healers are told what to expect of the class, knowing which buffs are mitigating dmg and when to buckle up if they end etc. In few runs we've cleared 2 wings and I must say that I didn't notice any problems with spike dmg as long as I managed my cds. Maexxna took us 3 tries, but it was more of an organization issue of killing cocoons and adds, and we took Loatheb on the second try.

    Next time we will try patchwerk but our OT(also DK) needs a bit better gear
    so after the raid I will post my observations about the fight.

    I'm very eager to hear from DK tanks who have tried 25 man content .

  6. #86
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    Dec 2008
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    Hello my name is Kyndara and I'm a DK tank and the "MT" for my guild. I should add that being the MT basicly means that I'm the tank leader and the one, who does the trash pulling, and thats it.

    I played a Def-War in TBC and was the MT for them, so as I switched class I just kept my position, because my guild knew that I was dependable and that I already had tanking experience(being the second RL sure helped too^^).

    Let me tell you about the experience I made there is definitly a scaling issue. At first i felt utterly squishy whenver my cds were down, but soon after I got my hands on some naxx and hero items my avoidance startet to literaly explode on our first trys on patchwerk (25) I took only 1/3 of the dmg of the other hateful tank while still having nearly the same amount of them aimed at me (he took 98 and I took 91). That reduced the damage taken to very little numbers but it was still very spiky.

    After getting the def-trinket from thaddius (10) I replaced my def gems with sta gems and startet to genereal work on my EH (got some high armor pieces like the kel(25) neck) and well now I have 31k HP in frost presence and avoidance numbers my warrior had when he was fully decked in BT epics. I now don't need my cds anymore to survive like I had to at the beginning of wotlk raiding, which leaves me with cds for everything that ca go wrong.

    So are DKs suited for the mt position? Yes if the player is.

    Another thing which goes throug my mind recently is how tanking stats seem to develop.To be true i haven't played on my warrior that much since 3.0, so I don't know how strong blocking now is, but what I read it seems to be very strong the avoid a dk in full naxx gear has is also quite high (I have 71% miss+dodge+parry atm), so I start questioning myself what is blizzards plan with the encounters? The dimising returns don't seem to have that much of an impact at all (except making parry rating almost useless...).

  7. #87
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    Dec 2008
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    I've ended up as my guild's main tank, and raid leader, without really intending to. These things just sort of happen some times.

    Anyway, so far we've been doing fine, Naxx10 cleared, Malygos to phase 3, etc. Biggest thing that bothers me is on super-heavy hitting mobs, like Malygos, I'm finding myself at disturbingly low health numbers when I miss a parry or two, and BS and IBF are down. Hopefully with the patch, the damage curve will be smoothed out, and I can regem, putting me from 28.6k HP unbuffed to probably around 31-32k.
    "As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgement, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me."

  8. #88
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    Oct 2008
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    in our guild i MT (warrior) and we have a druid as OT. This works the best for us as we all know how to use the chars to their best..we swap the OT/MT roles as the fights need.

    That said we also have a pally tank and a DK tank.

    They have other abilities and skills that they bring to the raid. The Dk and pally are both exellent at aoe tanking ...and they have off-healing abilities as well.

    Whilst we dont need 4 tanks in the raid..i tend to line them up alongside the MT/OT as off specs and their dps/healing/cc just really helps.

    We have tried DK as MT but as previous posts have alluded to...we are still learning how to play/use them to their best and also how they work ..i know on Patchwerk heroic we have had some disastrous attempts using the DK as MT...

    IMO they play an important role and can plug the hole in any raid. Thats why they are a hero class.
    Belgariad: EU : Lightnings Blade. Once a Tank. Always a Tank.

  9. #89
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    Dec 2008
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    Yeah , I've had alot of Heroics experiences with them and with they're High HP when they're not even specced and they wear plate make good pick up tanks.
    Tanks: Only we can take an arrow to the face and still live.

  10. #90
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    Dec 2008
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    DK tanks are situational for raiding, but I will pop a couple of my successes. I am still pretty new, so my experience is still limited.
    Patchwerk 10 - OT, with the high hp, and the fact that the hateful can be missed, dodged, or parried, I just hang out and dps popping my CD's as they come up to make the healers lives easier. I use Ice Bound Fortitude, Lichborne, and my Rune Tap every 30 secs with Vampiric touch when it is up.
    Archavon 10/25 - OT, again, I have the ability to pop my CD's when the main tank gets grabbed, I don't suffer from mana loss or rage starvation like a pali/druid/war can, so even without a taunt I am usually 2d on the meter in case a taunt gets resisted.

    For 5 man heroics, it really doesn't matter what tank you go with. It just comes down to a matter of them being a good tank or a bad tank really.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Dude, you gotta admit a lot of Dks wanna tank and just havent got a clue. I was watching a newly rolled DK tank a 5 man the other day and he did an appalling job, making all the rookie mistakes, pissing off his healers, pissing off his dps, pissing off an old pro like myself, who was trying to give him some pointers :P Generally a maverick who wants to be the star of the show. He is a typical noob DK tank. And yet he wants to MT in 25 mans right off the bat. I spend months learning to tank on my druid in 5 mans, and when I joined a raiding guild, I was very well prepared to both tank and lead.

    The attraction is that DKs are cool and new and groovy and everyone has one. The issue is that tanking is hard. It requires excellent leadership, group awareness, mob awareness, situational awareness. Tbh, most altaholics or people who play the flavor of the month class just dont have the patience.

    Having said that excellent tanks will always be excellent no matter what class they play. As long as they have a good team to back them up. So much of the resistance to DK tanks is already deep in the tanking culture, and in the noobiness of the casual flavor of the month DKs.

  12. #92
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    Dec 2008
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    I for one am a DK main tank, I do well and have high med. I've seen all my rolls dont push out the threat as Warriors or even paladins for that matter, But i still do very well as a main tank. Bunnyrage of Drak'thul, I am the Main tank of a small naxx guild named Viginty

  13. #93
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    Oct 2008
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    Plenty of people have weighed in on the topic, many of them DK's. I am a DK, and I've MT'd several 10 and 25 man raids without issue. With equivalent gear, skill with your class, etc, each tank can handle each fight ok, though as pointed out each tank class also has their strengths, so the smartest thing is to use what you have and in the best way possible.

    The only way for people to really see what you are capable of, which may or may not be a good indicator of the class potential (god knows I've seen some awful warriors, pallies, and bears), and to give you the chance to do your thing. I don't know how to go about that in your situation, but keep at it, and hopefully you can find your way in.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #94
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    Dec 2008
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    Speaking from experience, I have main tanked the first two wings of Naxx --Arachnid and Plague-- on 10man and have MT'd 10man Sartharion and both versions of Archavos the Stone Watcher

    I haven't had any issues as far as survivability goes. I'm finding that my biggest issue right now is threat generation. I'm just not seeing as much threat as I'd like.

  15. #95
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    Dec 2008
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    I've tanked the arachnid wing, Noth, Heigan, and MC'ed an understudy for the Instructor.

    Only trouble we had was on Maexxna when we didn't know the fight, but we soon overcame it.

    I don't see DKs as ill suited to MT, not at all. We can do everything that all the other tanking classes do, just a bit different.

    I will say however, my BIGGEST pet peeve right now is being brought to the raid, only to be told to go into blood pres and and DPS.

  16. #96
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halandir View Post
    have him try tanking through the swarm on Anub'rekhan
    I'm a DK tank (Unholy) and have attempted this several times. I've survived the first 2 swarms (barely) but have yet to make it all the way to the end. I typically wait for DBM to shout the swarm is coming and toss IBF just before it comes in. I've recently read that AMS works too but it's only for 5 seconds.

    Without kiting him, what am I doing wrong to tank this guy?

    I'm asking because it's fights like this that have my guild convinced that DKs are OTs at best, even in 10 man raids.

  17. #97
    For the time being, Glyphed AMS (10 seconds, before next patch atleast) when hes casting locust swarm. It stops the debuff being applies to you. Just before it wears off, pop IBF. (Must be before, as as soon as you get the debuff, you cant use abilities). Do that all the time, and rarely fall below 50% hp.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    I have been tanking since vanilla wow. I have 2 prot warriors(1 each faction) and a prot pally and now I have added a DK to that stable. That said I think the short time we have had to play with DK's makes them the least viable to take your guild through progression content.

    Death knights, at this point in time, seem to be the least forgiving tanking class. When I first started tanking with mine I had several omg what to do moments when I made a mistake and had all my runes on cd and some joker butt-pulled another group. and they are still spiky on the boss damage at times.

    All that asside If you have good heals and a guild willing to let you tank, go for it. I didn't have exp tanking raids the first time I walked into MC, I had a guild willing to let me get that exp and a great 5 man resume. Yeah it kinda feels wierd to have somone who was a shammy or a lock a couple months ago rolling on your tanking loot but they deserve a chance to prove thier worth too.

    And for the record, I think that as long as they make the promised changes next patch death knights will be on par with the other tanking classes....atm they lack a lil in the "oh crap my healer just backed into another group" department

  19. #99
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basridire View Post
    I've tanked the arachnid wing, Noth, Heigan, and MC'ed an understudy for the Instructor.

    Only trouble we had was on Maexxna when we didn't know the fight, but we soon overcame it.

    I don't see DKs as ill suited to MT, not at all. We can do everything that all the other tanking classes do, just a bit different.

    I will say however, my BIGGEST pet peeve right now is being brought to the raid, only to be told to go into blood pres and and DPS.
    That never seems to be a problem with me. I look at this way. Sometimes you need that extra tank, some fights just take one.

    The difference being is I can switch gear go into Blood Presence and still put out 1700-2000 dps. Prot Warrior and Paladin can't touch that and only a Druid can hit kitty form. So, when you only need 1 tank, it just makes the raid smoother to have someone that can put out DPS opposed to someone that can't.

  20. #100
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    Dec 2008
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    My thinking is the biggest problem with DK MTs (I guess druids too) Is that their two avoidance stats are going to suffer from diminishing returns, whereas warriors and paladins get to at least have a little bit more mitigation from block.

    Enough to matter? Probably not.

    In the end the player typically makes the difference between a good tank and a bad one.

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