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Thread: Death Knights ill-suited to MT?

  1. #21
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    Because you can, doesn't mean you should. Many tanks are fixtures in their guild and have been a rock for them and a known quantity. Damn few people can honestly say they have truly earned the MT spot in a month of live server play as a new character.
    I think this is more the issues DKs are seeing, than it being "classism".

    Take for example a guild that has been using the same 3 tanks for some time now, they're popular and well known in the guild for being tanks, have tanked all the TBC content for the guild, and maybe even Pre-BC content. They worked for the MT spot, right from the get-go by investing long amounts of time and work with the guild. Just because one of the hunters rerolled DK and wants to tank doesn't mean the three of them, who have been tanking for an extended period of time, are just going to step aside and say ok.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangi View Post
    I was thinking of something a little earlier. We aren't stepping into the 25 mans until tonite. And while I know that they CAN tank any thing I prefer to roll with tanks best suited to the fights. I am really a little ignorant on the strenghths and weaknesses of DKs.
    Alright there is no big advatage in a dk imo, but high avoidance and the ability to reduce predictable damage like maxxena is what sets us apart. And frost speced tanks can do well when there is alot of magical damage(if it can be resisted ofc). Also a thing to remember is that dk's are not dependent on taking damage to produce threat, so in a way we are the perfect ot.

  3. #23
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    i'd follow nips advice then...those are early fights with huge DK benefits

  4. #24
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    except maybe loatheb... mitigation is too important on that fight, go with prot warr for threat/mitigation combo

  5. #25
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    Most of the fights that really check tanks in some way are extremely DK-friendly. Virtually all of them reward intelligent cooldown usage, and DKs have cooldowns in spades. Sartharion with drakes, Malygos, Sapphiron, Maexxna, etc all have fairly predictable "the next 10 seconds are going to get a bit hairy" moments when you know it's time to burn a cooldown. DKs have a lot of cooldowns and do fine with these fights...better than some other classes, I'd say, who may only have one or two major cooldowns with longer timers, after which they're popping things like terrible avoidance trinkets.

    And for most of the other fights, the tanking requirement (in terms of mitigation/damage reduction/etc) is tuned so low that it honestly doesn't matter who you have tanking, as long as they have a shield/fur/frost presence.

    There are obviously exceptions (e.g. Patchwerk does a relatively consistent heavy stream of damage), but overall I think a lot of the fights that are tough on tanks really cater to the DK style: 10 seconds or so out of every minute that are really dangerous for any tank, followed by 50 seconds of yawning.

    It sounds like DK tanks will be getting slightly worse cooldowns, but slightly better mitigation when not on cooldown. That strikes me as a good change that will help fights be more neutral in terms of which tanks they favor, because the situation as-is either unduly favors DK tanks, or unduly punishes them, creating gaps in their cooldown rotation that are just as bad - if not worse - than the boss having some major burst ability he pops every now and then.


    TLDR: I think DKs are extremely competitive tanks at the moment, largely because the 'hard' tanking encounters are designed in a way that favors them, and it doesn't really matter who tanks on the easy tanking encounters anyway.
    Last edited by Ahti; 12-10-2008 at 09:17 AM.

  6. #26
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    Hi, I'm a very new member to this site, so please excuse my forwardness. This is a topic I have discussed with my guild mates and friends and I'm very curious to hear the opinion of this forum on the topic.

    I call this issue "ICT Syndrome" (I Can Tank! Syndrome). I've played a protection warrior for awhile, though admittedly my raid tanking experience is rather limited due to the fact that I was a healer (Restoration Shaman) for most of my career. I fully concede that there are mechanisms in place that allow a myriad of classes to perform the "tank" function, it is my belief however, that some classes will (should?) ultimately be better equipped for that function. As a healer, I believe that Warriors seem to have more control over a raid encounter or have the greater opportunity to regain control of a raid encounter as compared to other tanking classes.

    By no means am I saying that other classes can not tank, nor am I saying they shouldn't be allowed to. I suppose that I am a little disturbed at the "trend" that the functions of the game that allow successful raids (tanking, dps, healing) should be equally performed by a broader and broader range of classes. I feel that erases the distinction between classes, restricts the possibility of growth for a class and erodes the uniqueness of class specific abilities (the fun stuff).

    While it is true that the Warrior tanks different than the Paladin, the Druid and the Death Knight, if everyone wants to argue or point out how one can tank just as well as another, I suppose I feel like we should just delete the aforementioned classes and make the Tank class. The same holds true for healers, and damage dealers, both melee and ranged.

    I guess perhaps I'm jaded by the fact that people seem to want to side-step the "lore" of a class in order to perform a function. It's my opinion that this trend deteriorates game play and does not improve it. Just because I "can" drive in reverse all the way to work, that doesn't mean I should. I think that is how I see all the ICT Syndrome posts... "Look at me I can drive in Reverse all the way to work!"

    At any rate, I fully believe that there are Death Knights capable of being the main tank for a raid and that clever talent point expenditures ensure there will be a tanking role for just about every class you can imagine.

    Just an opinion... Happy gaming!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Many tanks are fixtures in their guild and have been a rock for them and a known quantity. Damn few people can honestly say they have truly earned the MT spot in a month of live server play as a new character. There are rare cases of a tank rerolling to a DK I suppose but it has much less to do with the class mechanics than it does with experience, attitude and resume.
    I couldn't have said it better myself. I think alot of us MT's are feeling more than a little usurped by the influx of mass amounts of DK's. My tanking buddy (another prot pally) completely dumped his main to play a DK and what feels like shove it down my throat over and over again. I took a shot at healing him through something in the 70's on my priest alt and had more than a rough time with the spikes in dmg. I think overall the traditional "tank's" are much smoother on damage intake and I honestly find it hard to let go of my role as a MT.

    Just my two cents.

    Kel

  8. #28
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    I'm not saying DK's can't tank because they don't have the experience. What I am saying is that DKs should expect to unseat other classes because those other classes have earned their spot. If a new raid is opening up and need to fill a tank slot, there is no reason a DK couldn't fill it (in theory, I admit, I am not up on DK mechanics) however, as an established raid gets rolling and has tanks to choose from, why would they pass on people who have done the job before to try the new guy out? Especially if that person never played a tank before? These things take time.

    I have been playing Wow a long time but not since release. RL events did not allow me to pick up this addiction until 10 months after the game came out. I leveled to 60 and started pluggin away as DPS, an off tank raid filler. I earned my keep, even when competing with other warriors only, over a long stretch of time. I didn't ding, spec prot and assume the job. I had to earn it and prove I could handle my business better than my competition. Its the same way and I will admit, we saw some of this with Paladins in BC. there was a backlash against them that was ascribed to the warrior insecurity and jealousey and that's not untrue but some of the conflict was over the attitude that being able to tank meant that you should be given the job to do so, in some cases, giftwrapped on a silver platter.

    And every story, every situation is different. This is mostly a personality and attitude issue and all of those things are unique. You can't equate DK #1 who is studied up on his class, geared up and trying to get his foot in the door with DK #2 who is stomping his feet and whining at a high pitch because he wants to be MT after playing a shadow bolt spam warlock for all of BC. It is and every time they do something like this, espcially with tank, will be a painful transition.
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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Merko View Post
    except maybe loatheb... mitigation is too important on that fight, go with prot warr for threat/mitigation combo
    Loathab is way too much fun between managing all my cooldowns and trinkets while pushing decent threat and DPS for me to let any one else tank him.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    And every story, every situation is different. This is mostly a personality and attitude issue and all of those things are unique. You can't equate DK #1 who is studied up on his class, geared up and trying to get his foot in the door with DK #2 who is stomping his feet and whining at a high pitch because he wants to be MT after playing a shadow bolt spam warlock for all of BC. It is and every time they do something like this, espcially with tank, will be a painful transition.
    This...

    I MT'd and OT'd as a prot warrior in BC clearing BT into pre 3.0 sunwell... when i sat out for a fight to let another tank in on farm content i'd get tells telling me to get my ass back in there.

    Now in Wrath i rerolled DK tank... I MT/OT we get shit down... i sit out to get another tank in... i still get hate tells telling me to get my ass in there.

    it makes me feel happy but /sigh... you know how people are

  11. #31
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    A good DK tank will be a good MT.

    A bad DK tank will be a bad MT. By virtue of the nature of "average", "above average", "exceptional", you'll find more bad DK tanks than good. Same for warriors, same for paladins, same for druids.

    As the newest class, where talents and abilities haven't been as thoroughly tested as other classes, it's going to take some time to smooth out some of the rough edges.

    However, as was stated before, it's more than just class mechanics and "I can tank becuz I read EJ and TS!". It's your attitude, it's your preparation, and it's your ability to think on your feet.

    Sure, it's easy to say "I can Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Blood Strikex2, Scourge Strike as unholy and do DPS and Threat on patchwerk!". But can you properly hold aggro on all the drakes and lava bursts when keeping Tenebron alive on Sartharion? I guarantee you won't be standing still and using that rotation, or you won't be successful.

    If you screw up your rotation - if you're somehow off a little bit on your plan, are you able to recover? Or are you going to be busy thinking "OMG I SCREWED UP!" and throw your hands up in the air?

    It's like being a word or two off of your carefully written speech for speech class, panicking that you messed it up, then turn and ask the teacher for a "do over". Wiping is what happens when you're given that do over - everyone's tired of hearing your damn speech (hi TK Kael'thas!) again.
    Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. -Seneca
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  12. #32
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    Yeah i get what you are saying Horacio. In old guilds i expect the dk tanks to be either a) old tanks coming from another class or b) a new recruit or someone who did not have a tank as main in tbc. If you are in option b its clear that you should take the back seat just like every other new tank. Asking to be mt on a fight just because of your class is an insult to your fellow tanks.

    But since wotlk have been released there is alot of new guilds and "earning" your tank spot there is alot easier. Personaly i was more or less picked up from the streets to come mt/ot as they was a new guild who needed a tank. I did not even have any plans to level a dk tbh, but it have turned out alot more fun then my warrior and paladin.

  13. #33
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    Going back to the OP's question about mechanics and what not. DK's are at a disadvantage currently and its called Block. As I read in a post on the front page by Cider himself, Block is OP right now. The more you have, the better it gets. I was talking with my buddy who is the Warrior MT about our DR's. Once he gets enough gear to block almost every hit, he will have a damage mitigation that I can not reach period. I think/hope this is what GC is going to address with our frost presence/IBF. To the comment on "oh shit" buttons. To me, they aren't that, they are CD's that I have to manage. A good DK tank will be measured on how well he can manage those. That is the major challenge of the DK class. Last night on Patch in 10 man, the healers at points over vent asked if he was even HSing. I smiled to myself and said yes. I took less damage than the MT on him.

    Our guilds view on who MT's is more along the lines of gear/skill. Unfortunately I am the only non Officer in the tank core so I would assume to be relegated to the OT spot anyways. The other problem I have is that I have the best DPS on boss fights when not needed to tank. So when its a choice of putting me or the equally geared Prot warrior in as tank, its a no brainer because I can DPS better. Hopefully duel specs will help with this problem in making the tanks more equal.
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  14. #34
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    I pretty much agree with the majority here in the fact that the class can tank, but can the player? How do you know if the player can unless you see him tank and IF the player can tank WILL the guild pass up the seasoned veteran been around since UBRS warrior tank to let the new tank on the block take over? I think maybe some guilds are waiting like mine to see if some of the DK rush will die down and some of these new DK want to tank players go back to their old main. We have had a lot of DK come up and I think only 2 have every really tanked anything of a raid variety, and the majority of the DK's we have, had a shaman for a while, and another main before that. Flavor of the expansion type of players maybe.

  15. #35
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    Because we don't know any different



    Ok so DK's are able to tank well there are circumstances that call for lock tanks and mage tanks does this make them tanks? If a class can tank or is able that does not necesarily make the player a "tank". As a DPS class your primary goal is to deal damage and not die if you have raided as a mage or shadow priest for the last 2 or 3 years what happens when a healer gets aggro, were you watching, did you notice? I along with the other raid tanks in my guild that have earned a MT or even an OT spot had the "red box" discussion where you see a healer take damage and panic trying to throw yourself in front of his aggressor.

    Now im not saying I'm some kind of hero but when I rolled a mage to try my hand at DPS I died alot, simply from the mind set I was usd to playing with I wanted to save the healer and if Omen said i was not on top I got nervous for a few seconds until i remembered my place in the group.

    Tanking is a frame of mind not a class and when you have all the Old Skool trying to be the new kid there are bound to be some miss placed souls in tank roles. Can DK's tank my thought is YES they are a viable class to consider using to tank. But there is a person on the other end of every toon is that person watching used to watching Omen or Recount was his first thought who gets macro'd for Intercept or DI? To all the Tanks who put the other 24 players first THANK YOU and DK's welcome to the club I'm glad you're here.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    All DK's have been tanking as DK's since November 13th, give or take playing in beta and the time it took to level to a point where there was stuff to tank. None of them have experienced MTing MC, BWL, AQ40, Naxx40, SSC, TK, BT, Hyjal, Sunwell....as a Death Knight.
    I am a reroll from a DPS class and I agree with this statement. I love tanking and I seem to be pretty good at it, but I will be happy with an OT roll for a long time because great tanking is all about skill and experiance.

    Our GL is a Prot Warrior, one officer is a Druid tank, and our Prot. Pally is uber and together they are our most experianced players. Because of the expansion gear reset our gear will be similar soon enough, but I trust it will take much longer until I have the instincts of a top tank and my guildies deserve nothing less. So I am very pleased with the OT chances I get.

    DK is the FOTM so there are a ton of them with some thinking tanking would be something cool to do. I suspect most will burn out on it soon enough.

  17. #37
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    my guild has been using DK MTs for a large portion of Naxx and they're nearly done clearing all of it. I don't see why they wouldn't be good MTs just like any of the other tanking classes.

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  18. #38
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    There are just some inherent characteristics that make DK's better or worse at tanking than other classes. My guild has cleared Naxx 25 for two weeks now. We're fielding a prot warrior, prot pally, feral druid (tank/dps spec) and me a frost DK, and I can honestly say we have no solid MT. I tank Anub'rekan, the 4 Widow adds, Noth, 2nd offtank Patch hatefuls, Undead side Gothik, Blumeau/Zellik, and my favorite job, tanking Razuvius until our priests mc the adds (15 seconds of 105+% avoidance ^_^). I also tank Sartharion and we did it with 1 drake up this week.

    So far it has all been based on who's best suited for what. Unfortunately, for simple fights, that means going blood presence because my dps is much better than a prot warrior's.

    At this point, imo tanking is largely based on skill and class abilities as all 4 of us are equally geared and i'm sure could MT all of the bosses. In an MT role, I guess that most of the stigma DK's have is our awesome ability to spike like crazy, which I don't like very much either. It sucks being fine for an entire minute of a fight, then almost flop because of 2 lucky shots. RNG can own us hard. I'm hoping the upcoming changes in damage mitigation will help. I'm going to miss that extra -15% damage on IBF though >_<

  19. #39
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    What you often see is that people come with arguments why they think a way or do things after they made up their mind to hide their true reason.

    (not saying it went this way but...)
    DK: hey I want to tank.
    Tankleader{mmhhh, we got enough tanks already and I don'wan to share my position, but I can't tell him that.}: Sorry mate Deathknights aren't good enough.

  20. #40
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    I don't think it's a DK's aren't good enough stance I think like most I believe, that being such a new class and untested and unproven that it's going to take a good long while before they have a solid spot in my mind. The class itself is in need of alot of tweaks/nerfs/buffs etc and honestly, I'd say at least a good 6 month window to work out the kinks. Just because some guilds are early adopters does not mean they should kick the tried and trues to the curb. Alot of the three 'old' tank classes have alot of experience that can't be taught, it needs to be learned.

    Just my two cents.

    Kel

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