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Thread: Frost/DW tank spec

  1. #21
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    In order to remove parries off the hit table you need somewhere in the ballpark of 11-14.25% parry reduction. In the Stickied Deathknight guide in the Theories & Articles forum by tonypablos i compiled a list of gear (albeit naxx gear =() that is ideal for tanking AND gives you enough expertise to not suffer any parries, thus allowing you to DW and put out what I've heard from tony, pretty decent dps, arguably better than 2handed DPS which in turn is higher TPS.

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  2. #22
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    Mmmm, all discussion of its feasibility aside, once your gear has passed the level where you are uncrittable, there's no good reason to dual wield. It's possible, doable, but let's face it, the only significant improvement it offers is more threat per second and maybe a bit more defense. I sure don't need more threat, and the stat difference with dual wielding isn't appreciable enough.

    I just like shooting down the "zomg you're a moron for thinking dual wielding isn't the worth thing in a world."
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  3. #23
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    Not that I'm going to kick anyone in the teeth here, seeing as I'm new on these forums and such (but I've been hanging out on Maintankadin since the dawn of time itself), but a warrior with a fast 1hander will be parry gibbed MORE often than a DK using 2 slow 1handers and specced Frost.

    If your argument is that you have a shield, I offer up Frost Presence and again ask you to reevaluate.

    Merely stating "amg DW doesn't work, parry!" doesn't say anything at all other than that you are merely regurgitating the rampant misinformation available all over the 'intarwebs'.

    That being said, since most 1h tanking weapons are fast, finding weapons that would allow you to experience the main benefit of DWing (increased avoidance, def cap) that were slow enough to allow you to actually DW is all in all a bit problematic.

  4. #24
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    I'm just grateful that they've added some slow tank weapons for the choice, even if there are only a few so far.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Mmmm, all discussion of its feasibility aside, once your gear has passed the level where you are uncrittable, there's no good reason to dual wield. It's possible, doable, but let's face it, the only significant improvement it offers is more threat per second and maybe a bit more defense. I sure don't need more threat, and the stat difference with dual wielding isn't appreciable enough.

    I just like shooting down the "zomg you're a moron for thinking dual wielding isn't the worth thing in a world."
    Less dps does not offer more threat. DW is less DPS than 2h.

    New rune is available only to 2h. DW tanking is always going to be inferior.

    I agree though, instead of trying to be different, people should try to be the best.

    Don't mistake being correct for stubborness.
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  6. #26
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    can you show parses of 2h doing more dps than DW in equally geared DKs? My understanding is that DW will actually put out MORE dps.

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  7. #27
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    My experience as well, particularly with the abundant availability of hit rating on tank gear, it's not hard to get near hit cap for your specials.

    And touting the same personal opinions over and over doesn't make it fact, nor does it make you right.
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  8. #28
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    This is the spec I used to tank everything from Archavon to Malygos, 10 and 25 man. I personally switched over to a 2 hander once I was crit immune without DWing but I'd like to DW tank again in the future when I can be expertise capped.

    http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=00540000000000000000000000032505351000321123210001 31350035200000000000000000000000000

    Will you get parried more? Yes. Will you be crit immune? Yes. Manage your CD's efficiently and it won't be a problem. The only boss that killed me due to a parry hastened attack was an enraged Faerlina while going for the achievement. (LAWL 21k hits)

    The best available weapon for you will be Broken Promise - Item - World of Warcraft and DWing those bad boys will be bad ass. If you're an Orc then Last Laugh - Item - World of Warcraft is your best choice given the extra avoidance and racial expertise. Second in slot would be Infantry Assault Blade - Item - World of Warcraft or the axe with the exact same stats depending on your toons race of course. I can't remember where the axe drops from.

    On a side note, for all of you people that are posting useless statements like "don't DW it's stupid," please realize that the OP wasn't asking if he should or not, he was asking what he could improve. Leave your pointless suggestions at the door.
    Last edited by Inaara; 12-12-2008 at 11:21 AM.

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  9. #29
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    I would have to agree with some of the posters here, leave your "No, Dont ever, CANT" statements at the door. One thing every DK needs to realise is the versatility of the class and the large amount of creativity given to us. With 3 tanking/dps trees, and the ability to DW and 2H, gives us the greatest choices in tanking gear, weapons, specs then any class before. One thing I am trying my best to do is remember that when it comes to DK's, there is not set way, there is no right path, there is only creativity, ideas, and implementation. With the right gear and weapons anything is possible with DK's and I fully believe this. Those of us who have chosen to make our DK's our true class, should be coming together and figuring out solutions to questions and not bashing others for having differeing ideas. Otherwise we are no different then those who said pallys and druids cant tank.

  10. #30
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    Preach, Brother Duck!

    =)

    I'm grateful to have a collection of intelligent DK players here to knock ideas around with.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njordus View Post
    Less dps does not offer more threat. DW is less DPS than 2h.

    New rune is available only to 2h. DW tanking is always going to be inferior.

    I agree though, instead of trying to be different, people should try to be the best.

    Don't mistake being correct for stubborness.
    I'm not trying to flame here, but "less DPS does not offer more threat" in no way makes any sense. What happens when a 2H DK parries? He gains runestrike, yes? Now during his swing timer, what happens if he parries again? He gains runestrike again, but it doesn't activate, as he's currently using the skill. A DWer with faster weapons will have that problem less frequently, resulting in higher TPS, especially with the 100%-150% change.

    Your comments are made in a vaccum, and that isn't correct in any sense.

    The new rune is not 'superior' to the parry tanking runes, therefore 2H is not superior to DW in that sense either. Different, yes, and helpful to the 2H who have a harder time hitting their def cap, but since DW doesn't have that issue....avoidance would be nicer, using common sense, yes?

    Don't mistake being correct for being stubborn.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannhet View Post
    Not that I'm going to kick anyone in the teeth here, seeing as I'm new on these forums and such (but I've been hanging out on Maintankadin since the dawn of time itself), but a warrior with a fast 1hander will be parry gibbed MORE often than a DK using 2 slow 1handers and specced Frost.

    If your argument is that you have a shield, I offer up Frost Presence and again ask you to reevaluate.

    Merely stating "amg DW doesn't work, parry!" doesn't say anything at all other than that you are merely regurgitating the rampant misinformation available all over the 'intarwebs'.

    That being said, since most 1h tanking weapons are fast, finding weapons that would allow you to experience the main benefit of DWing (increased avoidance, def cap) that were slow enough to allow you to actually DW is all in all a bit problematic.
    Not actually that hard to get a slow one-hander with tank stats, such as this : Infantry Assault Blade. It's a fairly high drop rate from a fairly easy heroic, or Broken Promise if you're running Nax. So I wouldn't say it's problematic to get something that will give you the benefit of DWing, just requires a bit of thought.
    Last edited by Galphanore; 12-21-2008 at 11:43 PM.
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  13. #33
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    First and foremost, Parry haste was a problem in the past, due to CRUSHING BLOWS.

    For those who haven't noticed...

    THERE IS NO MORE CRUSHING BLOWS!

    This means:
    If your at the min. on def, then the hit taken from the parry haste will be one of 4 things for a DK:

    Miss
    Dodge
    Parry
    hit

    Can someone explain to me... why it's ok for warriors to use fast weapons, when they are getting parried just as often, have lower AVOIDANCE(made up by block+armor), ALL their attacks are physical and therefore CAN be parried, whereas DK's rotations are considered spell, and you people want to justify that DW tanking "sucks" and "will kill you".

    Without even looking at numbers, or WWS reports, it's clearly obvious that DWing is 100% viable, and in the right gear situations, potentially better? The 2hander rune for def is giving ONLY to 2 handers, BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF TANK STATS ON THEM.

    All 3 tree's can tank. Frost is ideally designed to use DW, due to:
    The DW Talents.
    Icy Talons
    Killing Machine
    etc.

    People need to use their brains, and quit listening to blizzard, just because they have intentions for a class to be played, doesn't mean it is the ONLY way it can be. This is why there is specs like shockadins, smite priests, etc. 100% efficiency? NO. Viable? Yes.

    Quit the damn QQing, and I'm sorry for ranting. I've just seen 348390489834 people who "DW tanking sucks, get a 2hander!", without having any information, without using their brain, and with no proof that one is better than the other.
    November 23, 2004 8:27:03 AM - Glomgore 10+ Years of tanking? Priceless

  14. #34
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    And truth be told Blizz has never said that they don't want DK's dual wielding, nor that they shouldn't be able to while tanking.

    What was said exactly was that they didn't want tanking with 2 tanking weapons to be the better way or smarter way than a 2-hander. If it became the clearly better way they would fix things so it wasn't the case.

    And what I'm looking for is a good incentive beyond becoming uncrittable (which is about to become easier noticeably with a 2-hander) to dual wield while tanking. I'm fine with the idea, but I want to find mechanics that really benefit from it. Killing Machine I love, but my functional crit rate is so abyssmal in my tank gear even with a weapon or two with crit on them (which I don't have when dual wielding since I've gotten some fine tanking weapons for that) that I don't see procs often enough to be reliable. Though, dual wielding I do actually see procs, as opposed to using a 2-hander.

    So we need someone clever and creative who's come up with a strong system to benefit from dual wielding to set it apart for tanking.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  15. #35
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    From a pure mitigation of damage standpoint, with a decent amount of expertise mind you, which you should be going for NO MATTER your class, Dual wield will surpass 2 handed tanking for the simple fact of all the tank weapons out there.

    Due to diminishing returns, after a short time dodge's scaling starts to drop off the charts for scaling the best point-for-rating wise. Defense starts to pull ahead in higher gear levels, hence the reason high end tanks stacking def past 540. As def adds to your miss, dodge, parry, (and for palies/warriors, block) rating, it evens out the nastyness of the DR, and gives you some decent well rounded stats overall.

    For a tank such as a DK, and in a lesser case, a bear, defense actually starts to be BETTER than say pure dodge, and in 95% of cases, better than pure parry, once you start pushing a certain rating.

    Dual wielding offers the option of great tank stats, more notably, defense. For simple example, the RSoC is 38 def rating, and if you DW these, you get 76 def rating. Now I'm not sure on the comparing to the def enchant for 2 handers, i'm no math genius, but ALONG with that def rating, you gain other things, such as in the naxx sword case, dodge and/or parry, and 9/10 times, hit or expertise along with it. This also offers potential for your main hand to be runed, and if you choose to do so, your offhand to carry a more classic tanking enchant, such as mongoose, which = out to some amazing dodge/armor/crit for those times when DK's CD's are well... on CD.

    I apologize for my rant before, but cmon people. Quit the QQing, use yer brains, and quit acting like this is the wow forums. We ARE here to theorycraft, hence the theory and articles section!
    November 23, 2004 8:27:03 AM - Glomgore 10+ Years of tanking? Priceless

  16. #36
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    Oh, I agree that dual wielding is not so terrible that it's stupid to do.

    That being said, there will be an increase in damage due to additional parried swings, so there is a counter balance to the increase in tanking stats (and aside from the craftable tanking 2-handers there are some quality tanking 2-handers with Str/Agi/Stam that make for some serious avoidance).

    So, the measure is always, do I get more from the stats on my 1-handers than I lose in terms of extra boss swings from parries? It is a balance for sure, and not as lop-sided as some people would like to believe.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  17. #37
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    Exactly Satorri, and with the correct amount of expertise, hell, with ANY amount, the cap is going to close, and quickly.
    November 23, 2004 8:27:03 AM - Glomgore 10+ Years of tanking? Priceless

  18. #38
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    I think a lot of you are missing the gib/parry argument here. It is not about how easy you are to keep up overall its the extra spike damage you take from a gib/parry. Spike unexpected damage is the hardest to heal and keep a tank up through and as a tank your responsibility to limit that as much as you can. Also DK's similar to feral druids tend to take very spiky damage already. Allowing yourself to be gib/parryed is just irresponsible to your raid and others its not like expertise is hard to find nowdays.

  19. #39
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    No one missed that Broken, check out this post. There is discussion going on.

    The point is, everyone gets parried and takes additional damage from that, we all, as tanks, look for expertise to help reduce that, and the point being made is simply that dual wielding isn't that much bigger a liability for being parried by a boss.

    You don't socket everything with expertise on your gear I'm sure, so you are still vulnerable yourself. Everything is a balance, including this particular example.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  20. #40
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    My biggest complaint about DW tanking is the low threat that I had. Now I know I only had 2 quest blues to work with and pretty crappy gear overall (I was using tank weapons to cover crit cap) so I switch over to 2h tanking as soon as I could when I got my titansteel hammer. For me, it would be stupid to DW due to the weapon choices I have.

    Please give the parry gib arguement a rest, there is not a boss in the game that can gib you to death, and if there were, warriors would be QQing way more than a DW DK due to them having more attacks to parry.

    The things I see as positives for DW tanking are RS spamming in a raid for lots of threat come 3.0.8 and options for the enchants I use on the weapons.
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

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