25 man tanking specs.

[Joacimcans]

So with extended maintenace today I was bored out of my mind and I went to warcraft movies so i D/Led and watched some and first off i noticed The World of Warcraft Armory who has 41k buffed HP in the movie i was watching so i looked at his spec and i noticed it was pretty different than what i was running. So I then armoried The World of Warcraft Armory and noticed he was running a spec thats closer to my spec. Don't get me wrong these two people probably aren't the only tanks to do so but they are probably 2 of the best known and i found it intriguing that thier spec are wildly different. I also realise that in such high end guilds they could probably spec 0/0/0 and still kill bosses, but it has me questioning some of my talent choices.

First thing i noticed is they both use the Stam and + 2% armor meta, i was under the impression that the Def + 5% BV meta was the way to go, Notice Kungen actually specced 4/5 toughness and has the meta compensate for the other 2%.

The second thing i noticed is they both got Imp HS, I am not sure if it is just because my gear isnt as amazing as thier's but i dont ever seem to have rage issues for Queing up HS so 3 less rage doesnt meant much to me, Since Sco had to move down the arms tree it makes sense but kungen chose imp HS over Armorer to the Teeth, which i cant seem to understand why.

The thrid thing i noticed is since my spec more closely resembles Kungens he chose to get imp Bloodrage over say Imp revenge while i don't have math and i would call this a guess i would think that the 20% damage on revenge would be better than the 30 rage you get from Blood rage every min.

The last thing i noticed is that both tanks are gearing i want to say almost opposite of the way thier specced. I would personally consider Kungen's build to be more of reduced rage and some more Damage reduction skills and his current gear set is a high expertise/hit rating. Sco on the other hand has a a spec i would cosider a higher dps/tps build and with ATT has higher AP and significantly higher HP (due in part to using 2 Stam trinkets).

P.S. I realise that as pretty much all tanks i am sure they have different gear sets for different situations and since Ensidia hasn't released a video yet i cant see what kind of HP kungen has while tanking and i also realise that this set of content isn't challengeing and the upcoming content will probably require different gearing of different bosses.
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[kolben]

Back in the day, a coon's age ago, on progression fights it was not at all unheard of to take a very specific spec tailored entirely to the encounter you are trying to get past. That might mean taking improved disarm, or improved taunt, or tactical mastery etc. Things you wouldn't include in a general tanking build that you would use 24/7 for everyday raiding but that enhanced your ability for that one fight. My best guess is that is what they are doing. Also, those builds look somewhat ordinary so perhaps it's nothing more than preference.

[Sparan]

A couple important points:

-People are still experimenting with different specs, so I wouldn't be drawing any conclusions from the current specs of prominent MTs at this stage in the game. I've come to raid in a different spec each week, even if I was 99.9% certain that it wouldn't be better than my "standard" spec, just in the name of being thorough and playing all the angles (not trying to lump myself in the prominent MT category, btw).

-With 2-3 clears of Naxx 25 under their belts MTs are basically taking whatever relevant upgrades they can get for each slot which is skewing your perceptions, I think. It is true that there's a lot more latitude now for tanks to decide that they like having really high exp vs. really high avoidance on account of more options for each slot than before and some new gem choices (notably expertise gems). I'd be reluctant to peg anyone as favoring ____ stat just from looking at their gear.

-I agree with you that imp HS is a pretty strange thing for a tank to have right now. Like I said people are experimenting, and it's not that improbable that both tanks decided to give the talent a whirl, but I can think of a lot of better places to put the 3 points in a non-impale build.

[Lightmgl]

People are definitely still experimenting. Kungen's build seems alot more of a classical tank build taking imp HS for threat. Whether that is necessary or not anymore is to be seen but it is definitely a good talent to take on the way to impale.

I really like the 2% armor meta, I dunno why theres such negativity about it. Looking at fights where creatures hit for 10k+ through 65% mitigation you are easily getting at least a couple hundred points of damage reduction if not more.

[Xav]

Kungen's spec is really bad. Sco's isn't much better.

Not all high-end tanks understand everything extremely thoroughly. They can probably play quite well, but playing ability doesn't mean you're up to date on game mechanics, sadly.

Expertise reduces damage taken while increasing threat. Infact, Expertise rating reduces damage taken very similarly to dodge rating, except expertise doesn't suffer from DR. (But it does cap much sooner, but still nothing we can reach in current tank gear), so it's something to keep in mind.

There are about 3 common tanking specs to take, a threat spec, a mitigation spec, and a "balanced" spec. There are extremes, too, like a threat spec with deep wounds, and a mitigation spec with just about every point in Protection except the 5 in Parry. However, both Sco and Kungen's specs have little purpose and seem like they randomly tossed points in.

[Xav]

Also on the meta issue: 2% armor 32 stamina is better than the 21 defense 5% bv one. Infact, the 2% armor alone is equivalent to, in current Naxx25 gearsets, 21 defense and 65 block value. I mathed this out rather thoroughly... I can dig it up from an aim conversation, which I'll do in a moment

[Xav]

20k physical swing before mitigation

41.489 damage taken with meta gem (armor mitigation, average armor value ~23k)

8298 dmg taken avg with meta gem

41.97% dmg taken without meta gem (armor mitigation)

8394 dmg taken avg without meta gem

Raid buffed average stats:

1300 block, 1365 with meta, 55% raid buffed avoidance, 20% block, or 25% hits remaining that aren't blocked.

since shield block is up 25% of the time, so a quarter of the remaining hit table is going to be covered, or 25*.25 = 6.25% + 20% block =

26.25% "adjusted" block chance

45% of hits are not avoided, 26.25% block chance, so 58.3% of all hits not avoided are going to be blocked.

65 block value gained, 30% chance of crit block, 85 avg block. roughly 25% of the time its going to be for double, 85 * 1.25 = 106.25, actual math is slightly less so lets say 100 blocked avg (additional from meta)

58.3 gain from the meta then (58.3% block * 100 blocked average)

21 def = 4 defense * .12 = .48 real avoidance, OMG SLIGHT DIMINISHING RETURNS lets say .4% avoidance

8394 - 58 = 8336

8336 * .996 = 8303 damage taken with the Block meta, compared to 8298 dmg taken avg with Armor meta

Vs that 20k unmitigated swing, the 2% armor meta is better. Unfortunately, 25 man boss mobs generally hit for much more than 20k unmitigated, which puts the armor meta even farther ahead.

However if it's lots of little mobs, or a block set for going for 'full coverage' ('uncrushable') or anything that emphasizes block rating and block value, the meta of the block gem will, naturally, increase.

[Joacimcans]

so i am not the best with all the math and theroy crafting from what you posted it was a 5 damage difference I however didnt see anywhere in your numbers that you posted taking into account the minor mitigation you recieve from the 21 def rating as far as it adding some avoidence and mitigation from block rating.

edit: on top of that the BV meta gives a small tps/dps boost compared to the other one. I would think the extra BV would be better than the low AP you would pick up from ATT.

[Xav]

so i am not the best with all the math and theroy crafting from what you posted it was a 5 damage difference I however didnt see anywhere in your numbers that you posted taking into account the minor mitigation you recieve from the 21 def rating as far as it adding some avoidence and mitigation from block rating.

edit: on top of that the BV meta gives a small tps/dps boost compared to the other one. I would think the extra BV would be better than the low AP you would pick up from ATT.

1 def = 4 defense * .12 = .48 real avoidance, OMG SLIGHT DIMINISHING RETURNS lets say .4% avoidance

8394 - 58 = 8336

8336 * .996 = 8303 damage taken with the Block meta, compared to 8298 dmg taken avg with Armor meta


Yeah it was in the post.

Threat concerns are just...not something you should have right now.

[Lightmgl]

If you want an idea of the sort of unmitigated damage you're looking at Xav only looked at 20,000 unmitigated damage but tonight Faerlina enraged for the achievement was hitting me for 16kish going as high as 18k at 25k armor which would put her unmitigated hit somewhere around 45-50k i guess. I know Sartharion with 3x Revenge buffs hits just as hard as that and Malygos is somewhere in the 35kish realm. The armor meta grows into a much more significant advantage in those situations.

One day large damage boss specials will play more into the equation too such as cleaves and any high damage single target attacks that do more then their normal physical hits.

Theres quite a few trash mobs that are greater than or around 20k even. DK captains come to mind.

[Xav]

Exactly, 20k unimitigated is a low enough number to be more appropriate for some of the crowd that may only do 10 mans and 5 mans/heroics. And the armor meta is still better, whereas in anything that hits harder (and like you gave examples, tons of stuff hits much harder), the armor meta will be SIGNIFICANTLY better.

[bludwork]

I can say i switched to the meta too, it's much better migitation over the 21def, 5% block meta. 21 defense isn't that much, but 32stam is huge and 2% armor bonus adds about 800ish armor which helps a lot.

As for spec as long as you have the essentials you can tweak things around depending on the gear available to you, players with multiple clears under their belt tend to have a lot more leeway in the way they spec

[Sparan]

If it helps people that are using this thread to find a build at all, here's what I take to be the "token" builds for threat and mitigation:

Mitigation build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This leaves 4 points out which I would either put into some combination of ISR (more spell damage reduction), ATT (a bit more damage, and probably my first choice since I favor a more balanced build), or Safeguard (OT build). Also, notice I'm assuming everyone will want puncture, which may be a stretch, but I think that considering you aren't going for impale it's a reasonable choice.


Threat build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This build is obvious... the only reasonable alternative is to drop ATT and pick up those last 3 points in shield spec.

[Lightmgl]

Need to test the deep wounds alternatives more. According to Blizzard there is no more debuff cap just the debuffs become hidden to the client. I was playing around with DW in 10 mans today and it was stacking to 300 a tick with a fast weapon and no AP buffs (Commanding shout with no blessing of might etc.).

I'm starting to switch my opinion that deep wounds may take over as the dominant threat build, especially aoe threat. If it is 300 a tick fully stacked with my pathetic 600 high end then raid buffed with a slow weapon should double that.

[Raij]

One spec I haven't seen is :
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

which is my current spec. It seems like a fairly balanced spec, that is well suited to MTing. The extra HP you get from Commanding Presence seems quite helpful in this case no? While taking heavy damage in a raid rage issues shouldn't be a problem so the rage-cost reducing talents have been left out.

[Bayho]

That is interesting Raij, however there will be no point when you hit 25-Man raids. More than likely, you will be running with a DPS warrior that will get Greater Blessing of Might, and can buff you with the enhanced Commanding Shout. At the same time, you will want to pick up those extra Threat abilities so that your raid can pump out the DPS.

[Raij]

True, but if we don't run with a DPS warrior currently, is it not better to get the extra stam as it isn't on a DR like other defensive stats. Threat hasn't been a problem yet but time will tell. Truthfully we are only in 10 mans, and we haven't hit 25s yet, but theoretically would this not be better for smaller groups?

[Joacimcans]

So i checked thier armories and now they are both using the same exact threat build with deep wounds.

[Lightmgl]

I'm leaning more and more back towards deep wounds too over the 3% extra crit. Raidbuffed the 3% crit is pretty negligible and I'm finding deep wounds adding anywhere from an average 200tps to 600tps per mob. I would like to do some real testing but I find it hard to believe that 3% crit is adding more then that especially the higher end TPS when single targetting due to the constant 300 point ticks.

Its also nice now that Blizzard has confirmed beyond any shadow of a doubt that we are not screwing up other classes' debuffs. It could be our lack of a rogue but I find that i'm starting to need to compete with the classes that are consistently pushing up past 4500 dps now (Shadow priests, TG Warriors, Mages, and even both dps Druids).