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Thread: Is defense the best avoidance stat?

  1. #1
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    Is defense the best avoidance stat?

    From the perspective of gearing a warrior or a paladin, after becoming uncritable is it better to gear for defense or dodge rating when building an avoidance set? In BC the clear winner was dodge rating after uncritable for avoidance, but I'm wondering if there is a gear level where diminishing returns will favor defense. Defense will spread avoidance between dodge, parry and miss instead of focusing it in one catagory. Since we are speaking directly of avoidance I suppose all of the above considerations apply to Death Knights as well.

    I'm also not sure if I'm clear on the meaning of diminishing returns. Are these diminishing returns in the sense that stacking armor provides diminishing returns (i.e. the more you stack the less it's effect)? Or are these diminishing returns more akin to the sort applied to stuns (i.e. your first chance to dodge is at X% but the next incoming hit has a smaller chance to be dodged until you are eventually hit)?

    If the diminishing returns are like armor, it seems that spreading avoidance amongst the three avoidances stats should provide a good bit of net avoidance while minimizing the impact of diminishing returns.

  2. #2
    Diminishing returns are like armor. You are correct in assuming that spreading your avoidance across three stats will incur less diminishing returns than piling it all on one.

    I am of the opinion that Defense is currently the best avoidance stat for Warriors and Paladins, and probably Death Knights as well.
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  3. #3
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    We get block too! dk's don't, but probably still best for them too I reckon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    Diminishing returns are like armor. You are correct in assuming that spreading your avoidance across three stats will incur less diminishing returns than piling it all on one.

    I am of the opinion that Defense is currently the best avoidance stat for Warriors and Paladins, and probably Death Knights as well.
    I was of the impression that parry and dodge were linked for DR?

  5. #5
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    So you are saying enchant and gear for defense even if you are already uncrittable and worry less about dodge, parry, and block?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zapp View Post
    I was of the impression that parry and dodge were linked for DR?
    Dodge and Parry have different DR equation coefficients. They aren't linked. Check out the EJ forums.

  7. #7
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    I had posted this on the wow forums, to many views and no responses, but it is worth posting here as well.

    In 3.0, 2 major things have occurred that should adjust our weighting of defense rating:
    1) Avoidance is now on diminishing returns and stacking

    2) Block is now close to becoming actual avoidance, that isnít given to warriors for free. It is also off of diminishing returns.

    Working with 0 diminishing returns, 1% of real avoidance (dodge/parry/miss) can be obtained from:

    39.35 Dodge rating
    49.18 parry rating
    40.67 defense rating (4.9 rating to defense, 8.3 defense for a 0.33 reduction in each) and 0.33% block

    These stats all have the same itemization budget (epic gems are all for 10) so this is assumed to be an accurate itemization cost per avoidance.

    As you can see, and probably already knew, dodge gives you the best avoidance per itemization point when not affected by diminishing returns. In BC, we would stack dodge if we wanted to have an avoidance set. This is where the 2 factors come into play:

    1) Dodge, parry, and defense are now on diminishing returns so stacking dodge will mean you get hit harder on returns and itís value will shrink. Dodge has fewer diminishing returns than parry and we do not currently know the formula for miss diminishing returns. Block is not on the DR. Spreading out our avoidance, which defense does, will soften the hit from diminishing returns.

    2) Block can now be given more weight than before. As long as you value block at 18% of a real avoidance stat then defense is better than dodge before diminishing returns.

    Problems:
    1) Parry gets hit hard by diminishing returns due to its lower cap and we donít know the formula for miss chance. This means that it is possible for dodge to out scale defense at certain gear levels. These gear levels cannot be determined since we donít know the miss formula.

    2) The value block should be given depends on your block value and how hard the boss hits. These are two variables that are not constant and it is theoretically possible for encounters to exist where block isnít worth 18% of one dodge. I consider this to be highly unlikely though.


    Conclusion:
    Defense above the cap is now worthwhile in terms of avoidance. When socket colour is not a factor, defense is now a better choice than dodge for avoidance. Dodge is still the best red gem for avoidance, but depending on your current block/dodge chance it can be outstripped by strength for block value or even expertise (for fewer parried attacks) in terms of mitigation.

  8. #8
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    Why does parry get hit harder by diminishing returns? You understand that the Cap is not what the DR is heading towards right?

    The Caps are hardcoded caps by Blizzard and not a DR towards X.

    If I have 6000 Dodge rating, I will have over 100% dodge. but because blizz implemented a CAP, it'll just sit at that cap. it does not say that as I get closer and closer to the cap (whatever it is) I need exponentially more dodge rating, something like if the cap was at 75% i'd need 5000 dr to get from 74 to 75. It isn't coded that way, the DR is a linear 5% DR that is hardcapped at some set amount but the DR isn't set TOWARDS it, so no, Parry does not get hit by DR's harder because of it's lower cap. You just reach the cap sooner.

    Defense has always been worthwile in terms of avoidance, it was only a small % less effective than dodge in the first place and still is, it's just better now because it is a balancing stat, due to DR, and as you've stated, gives SBR which is good.

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  9. #9
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    The caps are a factor given how the DR formula works. You are completely incorrect in your assumption that the dr's don't go towards the cap. The way the formulas are coded, you get curved towards the "cap". The hard coded caps don't really exist any more and are now limits for the actual avoidance equation. As a result, the closer you get to the limit, the greater the DR builds up. The DR coefficient is class based and equal between both stats but the limit differs making dodge scale even better in relation to parry than it did previously.

    The equation for drs for warrior parry (as an example) can be found using the equation:

    ParryDr= 1/(1/cp + k/Parry)

    In this equation
    CP= the parry cap
    k= the DR coefficient

    Plug in our constants and we get
    ParryDr= 1/(0.021275+0.9560/parry)

    As you can see, the DR's aren't hard coded anymore and are merely limits on the avoidance equation.

    If you plug the equations into a graphing calculator then you can really see the difference. I'll give you the equations so you can copy paste them into an online graphing calculator like this one.

    Parry: y=1/(0.021275+0.9560/x)
    Dodge: y=1/(0.011347+0.9560/x)
    Last edited by quinten; 11-25-2008 at 10:58 PM. Reason: clarity

  10. #10
    From what I understand, Defense does not affect the Diminishing Returns equations for Parry and Dodge, they are separate based upon the number of Dodge and Parry skill you have. So, raising you Defense raises the Floor from which the Parry and Dodge skills begin, and DR comes into affect only on those specific curves that begin at the Defense Floor.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayho View Post
    From what I understand, Defense does not affect the Diminishing Returns equations for Parry and Dodge, they are separate based upon the number of Dodge and Parry skill you have. So, raising you Defense raises the Floor from which the Parry and Dodge skills begin, and DR comes into affect only on those specific curves that begin at the Defense Floor.
    I hate to seem like I'm guarding over this thread with a gigantic club but this is wrong. The DR's can affect avoidance from all sources other than base avoidance, avoidance from base stats (ie base agility), and avoidance from talents. Pretty much any avoidance that comes from the gear you are wearing or buffs that are cast on you. The EJ thread on the subject is very clear on this. Defense will affect the deminishing returns on avoidance.

  12. #12
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    By no means should you feel like you're doing anything wrong by setting the record straight on how avoidance works, quinten. Until reading this and another thread I was under a lot of misconceptions about the way the DR functions for avoidance, and I'm positive I'm not the only one.

    As for the as yet undetermined miss DR, would a thread with WWS reports from 10/25-mans with defense listed be useful in at least giving an immediate rough estimate on it? I can start recording my defense and posting up my WWSes, and organize the others' posts if someone is feeling intrepid enough to do the mathy work. Hell, I can even wear a bunch of different gear setups to guarantee a decent range of defense to pull data from.

  13. #13
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    Thank you for the clarifications and not being rude about it, my understanding was flawed, I must've misread how Satrina phrased his work. I just didn't think it was set to curve around the cap, but I guess this is right, and DRs for parry would hit harder because of the steeper curve in the graph. Interesting.

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  14. #14
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    Right now the ratings breakdown as such before diminishing returns:

    39.35 Dodge Rating = 1% Avoidance
    41.00 Defense Rating = 1% Avoidance + 0.33% Block Chance
    49.18 Parry Rating = 1% Avoidance

    Based on the above, I conclude that Defense is the best stat to stack until you're Passively Unhittable. (i.e. Until the worst you can do is Block)

  15. #15
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    Great article. I am impressed that you are inteligently setting people on the right course. Keep up the work.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparan View Post
    As for the as yet undetermined miss DR, would a thread with WWS reports from 10/25-mans with defense listed be useful in at least giving an immediate rough estimate on it? I can start recording my defense and posting up my WWSes, and organize the others' posts if someone is feeling intrepid enough to do the mathy work. Hell, I can even wear a bunch of different gear setups to guarantee a decent range of defense to pull data from.
    In order to calculate the formula we would need some fairly precise numbers which means massive ammounts of data at each gear level. Random numbers really suck, and to be completely honest, the ammount of work it would require might be better spent elsewhere. Someone with a better math background can feel free to contradict me, but my research training tells me it will be near impossible to reliably get the level of precision required without a sample size well into the hundres of thousands if not millions, at each gear level. Dodge and parry give us the numbers so they are easy, I don't think miss is at all feasable.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by quinten View Post
    I hate to seem like I'm guarding over this thread with a gigantic club but this is wrong. The DR's can affect avoidance from all sources other than base avoidance, avoidance from base stats (ie base agility), and avoidance from talents. Pretty much any avoidance that comes from the gear you are wearing or buffs that are cast on you. The EJ thread on the subject is very clear on this. Defense will affect the deminishing returns on avoidance.
    Thank you for the clarification, somehow I missed that when using those equations to build my own graphs.
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  18. #18
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    Instead of converting defense directly to avoidance wouldn't it be more clear in this discussion to call it by its name? Defense is a multicolor gem which gives dodgerating, parry rating to be missed rating and block rating? And the worth of defense compared to dodge depends higly on what stats you already have.
    For instance, if you already somehow have obtained an insanely high parry rating and rather low dodge rating I could argue that in such a situation slotting defense will not be superior to dodge.

  19. #19
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    Updated my DR article with a few up-front clarifications based on comments here. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by quinten View Post
    2) Block is now close to becoming actual avoidance
    That's mostly true through the lower heroic instances, but not so much later on.

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