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Thread: Slow Weapon & Deep Wounds -- Math Challenge

  1. #81
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    Yes,Damage shield procs Deep wound (screenshot)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grombrindal View Post
    Are you sure Damage shield procs it? I tried a few times and waited for a damage shield crit on one mob and I did not see the a deep wounds debuff on him, so I'm not convinced it does. Does anyone have any experience to the contrary?

    Thanks,

    Grom
    Hi Grom and all elitest tanks :

    I have been reading this thread and wondering if Damage Shield procs DW.
    It was when I ran out of a certain area, a mob hit me from behind. And I suddenly found the mob was with the debuff of DW. So I turn to combat log and made the screenshot then log on here. I would like to share this. However, I play in TW server, the words shown in the screenshot is in Tradition Chinese. Please see the pic and take a look at the first two lines. I can make a simple translation here.
    1st line: my damage shield hit the mob with 176 damage(critical)
    2nd line: the mob was influenced by my Deep wound

    I don't know if any one had found this. If yes, please delete my post and attachment. I just want to give some feedback to this great forum.
    I hope it helps. Best Regards.


  2. #82
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    i tried dw with the red sword of courage last night on patch. as an OT i hit 2k dps, of which 41,307 or 8% was from deep wounds. free damage is good! of course an 8179 crit shield slam is nothing to shake a stick at either!

  3. #83
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    Keep in mind talent points spent aren't free - e.g. you took less Cruelty to get DW.
    With all the musings it's looking relatively good you're going to match/gain with DW.

    But there are circumstances that will challenge that - something had to give.

  4. #84
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    How does this all work out with Rend? In one of the guides it is stated that rend is not good for tank warriors because a good tank weapon is fast, but since a slow one would work with deep wounds, would it also enable rend to be a better choice?

  5. #85
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    I'm not a number cruncher, but I changed to the DW spec, and I have noticed around a 8% increase in my dps. Maybe more when tanking a lot of trash. I Like It
    "Resistance is Futile"

  6. #86
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    I've been DW for about a week now. I was very skeptical at 1st but after a weeks worth of heroics, 25 mans, and 10 mans I have found it is very nice. I don't have any WWS as we don't run it at this point (trivial content is trivial) but I have seen my tps/dps increase ~5% from the 3 point talent. As far as the slow vs fast weapon it is my opinion that it is best to use a slow weapon in AOE tanking scenarios, low rage secenarios where Heroic strike doesn't come into play, and heroics. The fast weapon is most certainly better in unlimited rage situations where every swing is a heroic strike.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by CKaz View Post
    Keep in mind talent points spent aren't free - e.g. you took less Cruelty to get DW.
    With all the musings it's looking relatively good you're going to match/gain with DW.
    Deep Wounds averages about 8-14% of my damage on boss fights - I highly doubt that 3% crit could hope to compete with that.

    As far as using rend in your tanking rotation, I believe that threat-wise, it would probably be worth it. I have contemplated using it, but I just can't justify to myself adding complexity to my rotation. I already have way too much crap to pay attention to.
    [18:19:08] [R] [80:Neuter:1]: if bush can dodge a shoe, you can dodge the wall

  8. #88
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    Well, for rend Wowhead has a quick example from someone:

    rend on my level 71 prot warrior with no improved rend talent

    2.8 speed 1h: ~250 damage + ~650 over 12s
    1.6 speed 1h: ~250 damage + ~250 over 12s

    considering devastate only hits for about 400 (+5% of attack power as threat), it seems to me that with a slow 1h equipped, getting a rend up could be a better use of a gcd than a devastate.
    So it definitely does seem to make a difference and is something that makes the slow weapon even more viable.

  9. #89
    I tried out the spec tonight in Naxx and was pretty happy with the results. Would love to see others WWS parses and how they are doing with this spec. Really sad because our feral druid died early on Patchwerk so no mangle for most of the fight. Still did more damage though this week using 15/5/51 than previous weeks using 12/8/51.

    Wow Web Stats

    Also out DPS'd one of our warlocks on Thaddius but I think that guy is bad anyways.

  10. #90
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    Wow Web Stats

    That was a short naxx run, spec was 15/4/52 (can't seem to give up vigilance)

    As most people are noting Deep wounds starts at approximately 7-8% of my damage (no feral druid).

    I'm loving the spec, and my dps/threat seem to be doing great. I haven't put anything else to the test but I had an offtank switch from 12/8/51 to the same spec and his dps has improved by 150 to 200 with just that small switch.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by intolerantape View Post
    Deep Wounds averages about 8-14% of my damage on boss fights - I highly doubt that 3% crit could hope to compete with that.
    Right, I even said I basically agreed in my post. I've been a DW promoter

    It was in response to Ghrey - just want to make sure we don't all go 'DW is 8% damage so it's an 8% increase in my damage when I took DW'.

    No - you moved points and reduced your numbers elsewhere at least a little bit.

  12. #92
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    "free damage" as in you dont have to do anything to get it. (other than take the talent)

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    I haven't been able to keep up with the Math behind this thread, but this at least makes comparison valid for 25 mans now:

    [blizzard]We changed how the game handles debuffs (ie negative state effects on targets) on creatures with Wrath of the Lich King. The old hard cap of 40 debuffs on a target no longer effectively exists. You can now apply way more debuffs to a target without them dropping off before their duration expires. The default WoW UI will not normally display all these debuffs, but they really are still there! [/blizzard]

    Source: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> The Debuff Limit and You
    I think Pitbull has the option to turn on up to 80 debuffs.

    Also, I failed calculus. Cider guide oh mathed one.

  14. #94
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    Quick question, is all of this dps talk assuming the use of Conc and SW? Asking because I haven't seen any solid math as to whether or not it is viable considering SnB...I'm gonna try it though =p

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghreystar View Post
    "free damage" as in you dont have to do anything to get it. (other than take the talent)
    ah gotcha you meant passive damage - we're on the same page now
    yeah it is super sexy in that way, I love the built in 'PLG' feel to it

  16. #96
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    Chlorin, shiz, hello again!

    I have to admit I let this post fall off my radar. Tankspot moves very fast and it's easy for me to just disappear from threads for a while.

    However, a recent discussion/thread over on EJ has re-ignited our interest in the findings in this thread. Specifically, the worth of Rend with a slow weapon, and if it causes the crossover point of slow vs fast to change, by how much, and the like.

    Tanking "Cycle" and Priorities - Page 3 - Elitist Jerks

    Page 3 there starts most of the discussion again.
    Xav
    Formerly Xavastrasz
    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
    control+c control+v amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnuss View Post
    Hell no, its Xav, he is gonna type that bitch till his fingers fall off.

  17. #97
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    I can't sort through the EJ stuff, hurts my head, if anything relevant happens, help a lazy brutha out Xav =]

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
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  18. #98
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    Sweet, I'll definitely take a look at this. Not today - I've had my hands full with a good quantity of calculus, which is quite enough math for me in one day

    I've actually been working on a more flexible threat "spreadsheet" (in reality, it's a just a bunch of javascript, but works on the same principles as a spreadsheet) that might be well suited to some comparisons here. I should be able to give it a whirl this weekend and see what we're looking at.

    In terms of DW + Rend + Slow weapon VS DW + Dev + Fast Weapon, I think a lot of it is going to depends on how you plan your rotation out. The problem with warrior threat these days is that you can't just take a Dev out of your rotation without worrying about S&B procs. And then, of course, you've got to iteratively solve the thing because the procs are on the GCD, which affects how much you're actually proccing S&B, and so on...

    I've been meaning to run a rotation simulation to get numbers for the aforementioned threat modeling, and this adds a bit of extra motivation . I'll see if I can't whip one up by tonight. The two rotations I'm looking at running are:
    1. Standard 4-ability priority rotation, maintaining TC and Demo.
    2. Same as above, but putting Rend in the mix at a higher priority than Dev.

    Edit: Also, Shockwave/Conc

    I'll do both of these at 3 expertise/hit levels and see what the averaged frequency of each ability use is.
    Last edited by shiz98; 01-08-2009 at 01:34 PM.

  19. #99
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    Sounds good, looking forward to it. I assume you're going to account for Rend not needing to be used again until the DoT falls off, as well.
    Xav
    Formerly Xavastrasz
    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
    control+c control+v amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnuss View Post
    Hell no, its Xav, he is gonna type that bitch till his fingers fall off.

  20. #100
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    Yep, I'll be doing that.

    I've posted the results for a standard rotation here. I'll be running the rend version later tonight, the results of which I'll post here. For simplicity's sake I'll just be posting the devastate/rend usage. I'll also include the devastate usage from the standard rotation so that it's all in one place.

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