# Thread: Slow Weapon & Deep Wounds -- Math Challenge

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I see someone beat me to the math(I just found the thread ). Anyways here's my own comparison.

Comparing a 1.6 and 2.4 one handed weapon at 367 white DPS. (My current white DPS on armory) with a 12% crit and all the +15% crit talents (making mostly everythig 27% crit).

Deep Wounds
[1.6]367 * 1.6 = 587 * .48 = 282 damage over 6 seconds for every application
[2.4]367 * 2.4 = 880 * .48 = 422 damage over 6 seconds for every application

(With rolling I'm now looking at it as a flat averaged damage bonus for all moves that it applies from)

Forumula being used is
Damage added when crit * chance to crit / frequency of use = total DPS

1.6 Speed Weapon
Assuming 12% crit rate against 2.4 speed single target boss(for damage shield)
282 * .12 / 2.4 = 14 Damage shield
282 * .27 / 1.6 = 48 Auto Attack(with HS)
282 * .27 / 6 = 12 Shield Slam
282 * .12 / 6 = 5 Revenge
282 * .27 / 6 = 12 Devastate
282 * .27 / 12 = 6 Thunderclap
282 * .12 / 12 = 3 concblow/shockwave
total Increase: 86(+14 if damage shield works)

2.4 Speed Weapon
Assuming 12% crit rate against 2.4 speed single target boss(for damage shield)
422 * .12 / 2.4 = 21 Damage shield
422 * .27 / 2.4 = 47 Auto Attack(with HS)
422 * .27 / 6 = 19 Shield Slam
422 * .12 / 6 = 8 Revenge
422 * .27 / 6 = 19 Devastate
422 * .27 / 12 = 9 Thunderclap
422 * .12 / 12 = 4 concblow/shockwave
Total increase: 106(+21 if damage shield works)

2.4 wins by 20 DPS (Interesting enough, without rolling it actually won by more, 23 DPS to be exact(3 more). Odd huh? Turns out the faster weapon speed is actually better for the auto attacks with HS crit bonus from incite!)

Heroic Strike
[1.6](495 / 1.6 = 309(.64)=198 DPS) + (259 / 1.6 = 162 TPS) = 360 TPS
[2.4](495 / 2.4 = 206(.64)=132 DPS) + (259 / 2.4 = 107 TPS) = 239 TPS

1.6 wins by 66 DPS and 121 TPS(including from damage)

Devastate
[1.6]587 * .5 293.5 or 49(*.64)=31 DPS (assuming once every 6 seconds)
[2.4]880 * .5 440 or 73(*.64)=47 DPS

2.4 wins by 16 DPS

Threat Outcome:
[1.6]86 + 360 + 31 = 477
[2.4]106 + 239 + 47 = 392
1.6 wins by 91 Threat Per Second

DPS Outcome:
[1.6]86 + 198 + 31 = 315
[2.4]106 + 132 + 47 = 285
1.6 wins by 56 Damage Per Second

Edit: Does anyone know if deep wounds threat is modified at all by defensive stance? I'm going to assume no, which means that heroic strike and Devastate threat values need to be multiplied. Also need to account for armor which would let Deep wounds catch back up a little.

Edit #2: Uh, super failed plugging in damage for heroic strike and accidentally used the bonus it gets against dazed targets. Fix'd it and the fast weapon now wins both categories by a margin. Kind of funny it still won in threat with that big of a screw up before.

Edit #3: changed the deep wounds model to apply for "rolling". Heroic strike still wins. Actually it lowered the gap between the two a little when it came to deep wounds(in turn raising the gap for heroic strike). Still need to log in and see if deep wounds is affected by def stance. Still need to look up boss armor reduction % for heroic strike/devastate.

Edit #4: accounted for armor. This should be final revision unless I find defensive stance does not modify deepwounds.
Last edited by Zapp; 12-07-2008 at 09:35 PM.

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Originally Posted by Wartorn
I believe haste suffers from diminishing returns as well. So slower weapons will gain more than fast weapons.

I might be wrong tho.
Incorrect. Haste is a direct increase by %. If you mean that it has diminishing returns per haste rating and you get less % per haste rating that would affect all weapon speeds exactly the same.

Haste however is multiplicatively added. You get less from multiple affects. Once again however, this does not affect different weapons speeds differently.

Funny thing to note though, even though the % stays the say, faster weapons gain MORE distance with haste on slower weapons in this comparison. (Example at bottom)

Now, once you start getting into heroism with a 1.6 weapon speed and haste totems/icytalons with haste potions and haste food you will miss heroic strikes if your latency is too high. (I struggle at 250 latency with just heroism)

Edit: Hrm I just realized it wouldn't be that hard to use a direct comparison of haste.

1.6 speed weapon with 30% haste would be 1.12
2.4 speed weapon with 30% haste be 1.68

Old Difference
(495 / 1.6 = 309 DPS) + (259 / 1.6 = 162 TPS) = 470 TPS
(495 / 2.4 = 206 DPS) + (259 / 2.4 = 107 TPS) = 313 TPS

1.6 wins by 103 DPS and 157 TPS(including from damage)

New Difference
(495 / 1.6(-30%) = 441 DPS) + (259 / 1.6(-30%) = 231.25 TPS) = 672 TPS
(495 / 2.4(-30%) = 295 DPS) + (259 / 2.4(-30%) = 154 TPS) = 449 TPS

1.6(-30%) wins by 146 DPS and 223 TPS (including from damage) gaining 43 DPS and 66 TPS on top of it's old advantage even though they were both hasted for the same percent(30%).

(lol long story short percents scale lololol)
Last edited by Zapp; 12-07-2008 at 12:21 PM.

3. TankSpot Donor
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Deep Wounds
367 * 1.6 = 587.2 * .48 = 281.76 damage over 6 seconds or +46.83~ DPS
367 * 2.4 = 880 * .48 = 422.4 damage over 6 seconds or +70.4~ DPS
Don't forget rolling! This would work for the oldschool deep wounds, where the buff would just be reapplied; the new version stacks, so that each crit applies the full DW damage.

I modelled it as the full DW damage per weapon applied every crit.

Could you provide a little more info on your HS calculations? Specifically, I'm not sure where the number 173.25 comes from. The HS bonus damage at 80 is 495, no?

Does anyone know if deep wounds threat is modified at all by defensive stance?
I don't see why not - I'd personally assume that it does unless proven otherwise. Looks like some testing is in order
Last edited by shiz98; 12-07-2008 at 11:31 AM.

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Originally Posted by shiz98
Don't forget rolling! This would work for the oldschool deep wounds, where the buff would just be reapplied; the new version stacks, so that each crit applies the full DW damage.

I modelled it as the full DW damage per weapon applied every crit.

Could you provide a little more info on your HS calculations? Specifically, I'm not sure where the number 173.25 comes from. The HS bonus damage at 80 is 495, no?

I don't see why not - I'd personally assume that it does unless proven otherwise. Looks like some testing is in order
Uh, I failed hardcore and used the daze bonus instead of the damage. Wow.

Ok, fixing that.

As for rolling, yeah didn't know it changed. Sigh. Fixing that too. Give me a minute!
Deep Wounds - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
Last edited by Zapp; 12-07-2008 at 12:29 PM.

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Nice work Zapp! I like your approach better than mine

Also, FYI, I dug up a rage modeling spreadsheet I had made back in beta to get some armor damage reduction percentages for you. At 13083 boss armor and 5185 (sunderx5 + FF) ArP on the boss, the reduction is 34.15%. Used to be about 27%, until that armor buff (which is why I assumed 30% was on the high side).

The DW rolling really makes things interesting - the faster weapon actually normalizes things a bit because it generates more crits.

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Yeah, I was surprised about that myself TBH. From just auto attack alone, 1.6 is a tiny bit better deep wounds damage.

TY for the armor, I'll add that in. I'm in the middle of working on a lab project, but after I'm done I'll test out threat for deep wounds and compile it all together.

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Just a note - if you factor in Trauma/Mangle into the above math, the 2.4 speed weapon gets 5 more DPS from DW.

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Originally Posted by Zapp
Funny thing to note though, even though the % stays the say, faster weapons gain MORE distance with haste on slower weapons in this comparison.
Yeah, found that out too. The damage bonus from HS really works in the favor of fast weapons. The only way slow weapons can catch fast weapons is at ridiculously high AP numbers.

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[21:49:15] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Damage Shield - 298
[21:49:15] Threat: target - 402398
[21:49:16] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Deep Wounds - 41
[21:49:17] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Damage Shield - 135

[21:49:17] Threat: target - 438891
[21:49:17] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Deep Wounds - 40
[21:49:18] Threat: target - 447185

[21:49:18] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Damage Shield - 135
[21:49:18] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Deep Wounds - 40
[21:49:19] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Deep Wounds - 41
447185-438891=8294
8294/40=207.35

Threat from Deep Wounds is affected by Defensive stance.

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Originally Posted by intolerantape
447185-438891=8294
8294/40=207.35

Threat from Deep Wounds is affected by Defensive stance.
Alright, I think that's a pretty accurate picture then for a baseline.

Keep in mind, raid buffed and gear upgrades will make the 2.4 weapon get better. HS will stay the same. Also keep in mind all I've done is compare two weapon speeds, not validate the talent point usage.

I guess the next step is graphing it and seeing when the 2.4 > 1.6 (or if it happens at all?)

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Damage Shield works:

13:13'37.656 Zrthun melee swing hits Azure Captain #1 for 472 Physical.
13:13'37.750 Azure Captain #1 attack was blocked by Zrthun.
13:13'37.828 Azure Raider #1 attack was blocked by Zrthun.
13:13'37.843 Zrthun Thunder Clap hits Azure Raider #1 for 522 Physical.
13:13'37.843 Azure Sorceror #1 attack was blocked by Zrthun.
13:13'37.843 Zrthun Thunder Clap hits Azure Sorceror #1 for 523 Physical.
13:13'37.843 Zrthun Thunder Clap hits Azure Captain #1 for 521 Physical.
13:13'37.843 Azure Captain #1 is afflicted by Thunder Clap.
13:13'37.843 Azure Sorceror #1 is afflicted by Thunder Clap.
13:13'37.843 Azure Raider #1 is afflicted by Thunder Clap.
13:13'37.843 Zrthun gains Enrage.
13:13'38.203 Zrthun's Enrage is refreshed.
13:13'38.203 Zrthun's Enrage is refreshed.
13:13'38.203 Zrthun Damage Shield hits Azure Captain #1 for 275 Physical. (Critical)
13:13'38.218 Zrthun gains 2 Rage from Shield Specialization.
13:13'38.609 Zrthun Damage Shield hits Azure Raider #1 for 302 Physical. (Critical)
13:13'38.609 Zrthun gains 2 Rage from Shield Specialization.
13:13'38.609 Zrthun Damage Shield hits Azure Sorceror #1 for 137 Physical.
13:13'38.609 Zrthun gains 2 Rage from Shield Specialization.
13:13'38.968 Azure Captain #1 is afflicted by Deep Wounds.
13:13'39.500 Azure Raider #1 is afflicted by Deep Wounds.
Edit: http://wowwebstats.com/qmi2vt6l5by3c?bl=0&filter=unit%3D"zrthun"
Last edited by Zrthun; 12-08-2008 at 02:19 AM.

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The crossover point is about 11000 AP for a weapon DPS of 145.

The DW damage for each weapon is calculated as
Code:
`Weapon_Damage * 0.48 * [(0.12 / Weapon_Speed) + 0.225]`
Code:
```1.6 Speed Weapon:
0.48WD * 0.3 + 121
WD = (AP / 14) * 1.6 + Average Weapon Damage

2.4 Speed Weapon:
0.48WD * 0.275
WD = (AP / 14) * 2.4 + Average Weapon Damage

Generalized:
0.48 * [(0.12 / WS) + 0.225] * [WS * (Weapon_DPS + AP/14)]```
I did the rest of the calculations in excel.

Edit: I forgot to include armor in my devastate calculations. Updated
Edit 2: Attached the spreadsheet. Editable cells are black.
Last edited by shiz98; 12-08-2008 at 10:50 AM.

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So to summarize, fast weapons are still superior to slow in single target tanking until you reach 5-digit AP?

Also, how would the numbers change if you were doing (or trying to do, heh) DPS (possibly limiting how often you can Heroic Strike, and total lack of revenge)?

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Originally Posted by Mindy
So to summarize, fast weapons are still superior to slow in single target tanking until you reach 5-digit AP?

Also, how would the numbers change if you were doing (or trying to do, heh) DPS (possibly limiting how often you can Heroic Strike, and total lack of revenge)?
Pretty much.

I believe, with our current tools, max tps priorities = max dps. I've been wrong before (look about 5 post up ><).

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Originally Posted by Wartorn
Pretty much.

I believe, with our current tools, max tps priorities = max dps. I've been wrong before (look about 5 post up ><).

I already have guild mates able to keep a sustained 4k TPS that I need to beat on stand still fights. Maly goes just gets completley nuts when stacks spark. TPS is very much a concern again.

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Just wait until you have HaT rogues in their own group constantly Tricking each other. It gets pretty nuts, quickly.

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Yup, threat on Maly is gonna be tough due to stacking sparks. But that's why he's tauntable.

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Originally Posted by ranuvin
Just wait until you have HaT rogues in their own group constantly Tricking each other. It gets pretty nuts, quickly.

Off-topic
Is that a bug or is it intended?

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Well, from what I've seen the only blue post on the matter claims it's "working as intended." But honestly, 1 crit and all rogues gain 3-5 combo pts (depending on # of HaT rogues in group) seems pretty broken to me. I don't see how that's really intended, simply spamming eviscerate every single global.

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Kinda weird cuz it goes against Blizzard's new stance of not stacking groups.

/re-rail?

Woot, I got Broken Promise off 4H last night. First level 80 weapon with def I've seen drop in Wrath.