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Thread: Slow Weapon & Deep Wounds -- Math Challenge

  1. #61
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    I see someone beat me to the math(I just found the thread ). Anyways here's my own comparison.

    Comparing a 1.6 and 2.4 one handed weapon at 367 white DPS. (My current white DPS on armory) with a 12% crit and all the +15% crit talents (making mostly everythig 27% crit).

    Deep Wounds
    [1.6]367 * 1.6 = 587 * .48 = 282 damage over 6 seconds for every application
    [2.4]367 * 2.4 = 880 * .48 = 422 damage over 6 seconds for every application

    (With rolling I'm now looking at it as a flat averaged damage bonus for all moves that it applies from)

    Forumula being used is
    Damage added when crit * chance to crit / frequency of use = total DPS

    1.6 Speed Weapon
    Assuming 12% crit rate against 2.4 speed single target boss(for damage shield)
    282 * .12 / 2.4 = 14 Damage shield
    282 * .27 / 1.6 = 48 Auto Attack(with HS)
    282 * .27 / 6 = 12 Shield Slam
    282 * .12 / 6 = 5 Revenge
    282 * .27 / 6 = 12 Devastate
    282 * .27 / 12 = 6 Thunderclap
    282 * .12 / 12 = 3 concblow/shockwave
    total Increase: 86(+14 if damage shield works)

    2.4 Speed Weapon
    Assuming 12% crit rate against 2.4 speed single target boss(for damage shield)
    422 * .12 / 2.4 = 21 Damage shield
    422 * .27 / 2.4 = 47 Auto Attack(with HS)
    422 * .27 / 6 = 19 Shield Slam
    422 * .12 / 6 = 8 Revenge
    422 * .27 / 6 = 19 Devastate
    422 * .27 / 12 = 9 Thunderclap
    422 * .12 / 12 = 4 concblow/shockwave
    Total increase: 106(+21 if damage shield works)

    2.4 wins by 20 DPS (Interesting enough, without rolling it actually won by more, 23 DPS to be exact(3 more). Odd huh? Turns out the faster weapon speed is actually better for the auto attacks with HS crit bonus from incite!)

    Heroic Strike
    [1.6](495 / 1.6 = 309(.64)=198 DPS) + (259 / 1.6 = 162 TPS) = 360 TPS
    [2.4](495 / 2.4 = 206(.64)=132 DPS) + (259 / 2.4 = 107 TPS) = 239 TPS

    1.6 wins by 66 DPS and 121 TPS(including from damage)

    Devastate
    [1.6]587 * .5 293.5 or 49(*.64)=31 DPS (assuming once every 6 seconds)
    [2.4]880 * .5 440 or 73(*.64)=47 DPS

    2.4 wins by 16 DPS

    Threat Outcome:
    [1.6]86 + 360 + 31 = 477
    [2.4]106 + 239 + 47 = 392
    1.6 wins by 91 Threat Per Second

    DPS Outcome:
    [1.6]86 + 198 + 31 = 315
    [2.4]106 + 132 + 47 = 285
    1.6 wins by 56 Damage Per Second

    Edit: Does anyone know if deep wounds threat is modified at all by defensive stance? I'm going to assume no, which means that heroic strike and Devastate threat values need to be multiplied. Also need to account for armor which would let Deep wounds catch back up a little.

    Edit #2: Uh, super failed plugging in damage for heroic strike and accidentally used the bonus it gets against dazed targets. Fix'd it and the fast weapon now wins both categories by a margin. Kind of funny it still won in threat with that big of a screw up before.

    Edit #3: changed the deep wounds model to apply for "rolling". Heroic strike still wins. Actually it lowered the gap between the two a little when it came to deep wounds(in turn raising the gap for heroic strike). Still need to log in and see if deep wounds is affected by def stance. Still need to look up boss armor reduction % for heroic strike/devastate.

    Edit #4: accounted for armor. This should be final revision unless I find defensive stance does not modify deepwounds.
    Last edited by Zapp; 12-07-2008 at 08:35 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wartorn View Post
    I believe haste suffers from diminishing returns as well. So slower weapons will gain more than fast weapons.

    I might be wrong tho.
    Incorrect. Haste is a direct increase by %. If you mean that it has diminishing returns per haste rating and you get less % per haste rating that would affect all weapon speeds exactly the same.

    Haste however is multiplicatively added. You get less from multiple affects. Once again however, this does not affect different weapons speeds differently.

    Funny thing to note though, even though the % stays the say, faster weapons gain MORE distance with haste on slower weapons in this comparison. (Example at bottom)

    Now, once you start getting into heroism with a 1.6 weapon speed and haste totems/icytalons with haste potions and haste food you will miss heroic strikes if your latency is too high. (I struggle at 250 latency with just heroism)

    Edit: Hrm I just realized it wouldn't be that hard to use a direct comparison of haste.

    1.6 speed weapon with 30% haste would be 1.12
    2.4 speed weapon with 30% haste be 1.68

    Old Difference
    (495 / 1.6 = 309 DPS) + (259 / 1.6 = 162 TPS) = 470 TPS
    (495 / 2.4 = 206 DPS) + (259 / 2.4 = 107 TPS) = 313 TPS

    1.6 wins by 103 DPS and 157 TPS(including from damage)


    New Difference
    (495 / 1.6(-30%) = 441 DPS) + (259 / 1.6(-30%) = 231.25 TPS) = 672 TPS
    (495 / 2.4(-30%) = 295 DPS) + (259 / 2.4(-30%) = 154 TPS) = 449 TPS

    1.6(-30%) wins by 146 DPS and 223 TPS (including from damage) gaining 43 DPS and 66 TPS on top of it's old advantage even though they were both hasted for the same percent(30%).

    (lol long story short percents scale lololol)
    Last edited by Zapp; 12-07-2008 at 11:21 AM.

  3. #63
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    Deep Wounds
    367 * 1.6 = 587.2 * .48 = 281.76 damage over 6 seconds or +46.83~ DPS
    367 * 2.4 = 880 * .48 = 422.4 damage over 6 seconds or +70.4~ DPS
    Don't forget rolling! This would work for the oldschool deep wounds, where the buff would just be reapplied; the new version stacks, so that each crit applies the full DW damage.

    I modelled it as the full DW damage per weapon applied every crit.

    Could you provide a little more info on your HS calculations? Specifically, I'm not sure where the number 173.25 comes from. The HS bonus damage at 80 is 495, no?

    Does anyone know if deep wounds threat is modified at all by defensive stance?
    I don't see why not - I'd personally assume that it does unless proven otherwise. Looks like some testing is in order
    Last edited by shiz98; 12-07-2008 at 10:31 AM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiz98 View Post
    Don't forget rolling! This would work for the oldschool deep wounds, where the buff would just be reapplied; the new version stacks, so that each crit applies the full DW damage.

    I modelled it as the full DW damage per weapon applied every crit.

    Could you provide a little more info on your HS calculations? Specifically, I'm not sure where the number 173.25 comes from. The HS bonus damage at 80 is 495, no?


    I don't see why not - I'd personally assume that it does unless proven otherwise. Looks like some testing is in order
    Uh, I failed hardcore and used the daze bonus instead of the damage. Wow.

    Ok, fixing that.

    As for rolling, yeah didn't know it changed. Sigh. Fixing that too. Give me a minute!
    Deep Wounds - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
    Last edited by Zapp; 12-07-2008 at 11:29 AM.

  5. #65
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    Nice work Zapp! I like your approach better than mine

    Also, FYI, I dug up a rage modeling spreadsheet I had made back in beta to get some armor damage reduction percentages for you. At 13083 boss armor and 5185 (sunderx5 + FF) ArP on the boss, the reduction is 34.15%. Used to be about 27%, until that armor buff (which is why I assumed 30% was on the high side).

    The DW rolling really makes things interesting - the faster weapon actually normalizes things a bit because it generates more crits.

  6. #66
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    Yeah, I was surprised about that myself TBH. From just auto attack alone, 1.6 is a tiny bit better deep wounds damage.

    TY for the armor, I'll add that in. I'm in the middle of working on a lab project, but after I'm done I'll test out threat for deep wounds and compile it all together.

  7. #67
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    Just a note - if you factor in Trauma/Mangle into the above math, the 2.4 speed weapon gets 5 more DPS from DW.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zapp View Post
    Funny thing to note though, even though the % stays the say, faster weapons gain MORE distance with haste on slower weapons in this comparison.
    Yeah, found that out too. The damage bonus from HS really works in the favor of fast weapons. The only way slow weapons can catch fast weapons is at ridiculously high AP numbers.

  9. #69
    [21:49:15] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Damage Shield - 298
    [21:49:15] Threat: target - 402398
    [21:49:16] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Deep Wounds - 41
    [21:49:17] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Damage Shield - 135

    [21:49:17] Threat: target - 438891
    [21:49:17] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Deep Wounds - 40
    [21:49:18] Threat: target - 447185

    [21:49:18] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Damage Shield - 135
    [21:49:18] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Deep Wounds - 40
    [21:49:19] Threat: 0xF1300079FC09FB92 Deep Wounds - 41
    447185-438891=8294
    8294/40=207.35

    Threat from Deep Wounds is affected by Defensive stance.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by intolerantape View Post
    447185-438891=8294
    8294/40=207.35

    Threat from Deep Wounds is affected by Defensive stance.
    Alright, I think that's a pretty accurate picture then for a baseline.

    Keep in mind, raid buffed and gear upgrades will make the 2.4 weapon get better. HS will stay the same. Also keep in mind all I've done is compare two weapon speeds, not validate the talent point usage.

    I guess the next step is graphing it and seeing when the 2.4 > 1.6 (or if it happens at all?)

  11. #71
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    Damage Shield works:

    13:13'37.656 Zrthun melee swing hits Azure Captain #1 for 472 Physical.
    13:13'37.750 Azure Captain #1 attack was blocked by Zrthun.
    13:13'37.828 Azure Raider #1 attack was blocked by Zrthun.
    13:13'37.843 Zrthun Thunder Clap hits Azure Raider #1 for 522 Physical.
    13:13'37.843 Azure Sorceror #1 attack was blocked by Zrthun.
    13:13'37.843 Zrthun Thunder Clap hits Azure Sorceror #1 for 523 Physical.
    13:13'37.843 Zrthun Thunder Clap hits Azure Captain #1 for 521 Physical.
    13:13'37.843 Azure Captain #1 is afflicted by Thunder Clap.
    13:13'37.843 Azure Sorceror #1 is afflicted by Thunder Clap.
    13:13'37.843 Azure Raider #1 is afflicted by Thunder Clap.
    13:13'37.843 Zrthun gains Enrage.
    13:13'38.203 Zrthun's Enrage is refreshed.
    13:13'38.203 Zrthun's Enrage is refreshed.
    13:13'38.203 Zrthun Damage Shield hits Azure Captain #1 for 275 Physical. (Critical)
    13:13'38.218 Zrthun gains 2 Rage from Shield Specialization.
    13:13'38.609 Zrthun Damage Shield hits Azure Raider #1 for 302 Physical. (Critical)
    13:13'38.609 Zrthun gains 2 Rage from Shield Specialization.
    13:13'38.609 Zrthun Damage Shield hits Azure Sorceror #1 for 137 Physical.
    13:13'38.609 Zrthun gains 2 Rage from Shield Specialization.
    13:13'38.968 Azure Captain #1 is afflicted by Deep Wounds.
    13:13'39.500 Azure Raider #1 is afflicted by Deep Wounds.
    Edit: http://wowwebstats.com/qmi2vt6l5by3c?bl=0&filter=unit%3D"zrthun"
    Last edited by Zrthun; 12-08-2008 at 01:19 AM.

  12. #72
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    The crossover point is about 11000 AP for a weapon DPS of 145.

    The DW damage for each weapon is calculated as
    Code:
    Weapon_Damage * 0.48 * [(0.12 / Weapon_Speed) + 0.225]
    This leads to the following:
    Code:
    1.6 Speed Weapon:
    0.48WD * 0.3 + 121
    WD = (AP / 14) * 1.6 + Average Weapon Damage
    
    2.4 Speed Weapon:
    0.48WD * 0.275
    WD = (AP / 14) * 2.4 + Average Weapon Damage
    
    Generalized:
    0.48 * [(0.12 / WS) + 0.225] * [WS * (Weapon_DPS + AP/14)]
    I did the rest of the calculations in excel.

    Edit: I forgot to include armor in my devastate calculations. Updated
    Edit 2: Attached the spreadsheet. Editable cells are black.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by shiz98; 12-08-2008 at 09:50 AM.

  13. #73
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    So to summarize, fast weapons are still superior to slow in single target tanking until you reach 5-digit AP?

    Also, how would the numbers change if you were doing (or trying to do, heh) DPS (possibly limiting how often you can Heroic Strike, and total lack of revenge)?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindy View Post
    So to summarize, fast weapons are still superior to slow in single target tanking until you reach 5-digit AP?

    Also, how would the numbers change if you were doing (or trying to do, heh) DPS (possibly limiting how often you can Heroic Strike, and total lack of revenge)?
    Pretty much.

    I believe, with our current tools, max tps priorities = max dps. I've been wrong before (look about 5 post up ><).

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wartorn View Post
    Pretty much.

    I believe, with our current tools, max tps priorities = max dps. I've been wrong before (look about 5 post up ><).

    I already have guild mates able to keep a sustained 4k TPS that I need to beat on stand still fights. Maly goes just gets completley nuts when stacks spark. TPS is very much a concern again.

  16. #76
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    Just wait until you have HaT rogues in their own group constantly Tricking each other. It gets pretty nuts, quickly.

  17. #77
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    Yup, threat on Maly is gonna be tough due to stacking sparks. But that's why he's tauntable.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranuvin View Post
    Just wait until you have HaT rogues in their own group constantly Tricking each other. It gets pretty nuts, quickly.

    Off-topic
    Is that a bug or is it intended?

  19. #79
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    Well, from what I've seen the only blue post on the matter claims it's "working as intended." But honestly, 1 crit and all rogues gain 3-5 combo pts (depending on # of HaT rogues in group) seems pretty broken to me. I don't see how that's really intended, simply spamming eviscerate every single global.

  20. #80
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    Kinda weird cuz it goes against Blizzard's new stance of not stacking groups.

    /re-rail?

    Woot, I got Broken Promise off 4H last night. First level 80 weapon with def I've seen drop in Wrath.

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