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Thread: Slow Weapon & Deep Wounds -- Math Challenge

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wartorn View Post
    Adding another monkey wrench.

    What about parry stacking with a big weapon? You would see huge gains in HS (damage/threat) from parry hasted slow weapons vs fast weapons.
    Keep in mind it is very hard to parry stack due to diminishing returns.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightmgl View Post
    The experienced people aren't taking puncture. It is being written off as a pretty useless talent at the moment.

    Sure deep wounds would probably add more but I would rather save the debuff slot and take the all around boost. No point in choosing between AttT and Cruelty when you can just max both and still be unkillable.
    Doh I stated it wrong, none of my builds posted have Puncture, I meant chopping a little bit at Focused Rage, my bad.

    Also note the recent change that there are enough Debuff slots to go around

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightmgl View Post
    Keep in mind it is very hard to parry stack due to diminishing returns.
    The curve doesn't really kick in until you get ~10% from gear. So until that point, you're really not losing too much to diminishing returns.

    The hard part of this challenge would be to model how many parry hastes you will get. Since it's completely dependent on the mob's swing speed and parry rate (do mobs get parry haste in Wrath?). And though it's unlikely, maybe we will find that haste is a good stat for tanks with a slow weapon.

  4. #44
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    mobs do still get parry haste in wrath.

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  5. #45
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    Thats true I suppose. Keep in mind though that you get 5.6% of that 10% just from defense. I'm sitting at +8.37 without even specifically looking for it.

    Also I need to do some real math on it but theoretically any sort of haste should work more in favor of the faster weapon if it is already doing higher TPS assuming rage is not an issue. Its all about the per second and if you are doing 200 TPS with one weapon and 100 TPS with the other then 50% haste would make it 400/200 since you are doubling your speed which would double the threat in the same time period.

    Obviously if you can't keep up with the rage pace once you cross a certain threshhold (IE if I can't spam HS below lets say 1.0 swing speed) then pushing the slower weapon down to that speed vs pushing the fast weapon below that speed would start yielding a threat increase. Obviously it would require a ton more haste to do though.

  6. #46
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    I believe haste suffers from diminishing returns as well. So slower weapons will gain more than fast weapons.

    I might be wrong tho.

  7. #47
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    I am looking at going with this Build tonight in 25 Naxx and Obsidian Sanctum.

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    Here is my current kit:

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    We've been farming the 25 minute Strat run for the last week or so. I've been able to sustain about 1400 dps during the run. I'll try and use that as my benchmark tonight.

  8. #48
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    If haste has DR I'd really really hope its at a % and not at a fixed number. That would create all sorts of horrible nasty effects in weapon upgrades for dps classes and a significant advantage to Titan's Grip over other dual wielding dps classes.

  9. #49
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    Slow weapons and fast weapons will benefit identically from haste in terms of their net dps/tps gains, with the only significant difference really being that a slow weapon would have a slightly better time with giving you "chunky" rage if you added some haste (since it would be hitting slightly more often and so you wouldn't have to wait as long to use a special in a rage starvation case... whereas a fast weapon isn't apt to leave you waiting long enough for it to really matter anyways). BUT, the vast majority of a prot warrior's dps comes from specials, and aside from giving you the odd extra HS, haste will not help you much in this department, making it hands down the very worst stat for a prot warrior to pick up in the name of upping dps. Instead cap hit/exp then go for str/ap/BV.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    I am actually testing the difference in deep wounds vs no deep wounds this week and the following on Patchwerk, which will allow for simple reproduction of numbers and displaying the differences/comparisons.
    What's your conclusion on deep wounds, Xav?

    I've looked at a couple WWS for Patchwerk kills and looks like you got around 400 DPS out of deep wounds, which seems pretty damn good. I'm curious what your spec was with deep wounds too, if you don't mind sharing.

    This is the spec I was thinking would work, though I'm up in the air whether shifting points from armed to the teeth to cruelty is worth it. I'm assuming most of the deep wounds procs would be from SS, HS, and tclap, which already get a lot of crit from prot talents.

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    Last edited by Dredd; 12-04-2008 at 01:55 PM.

  11. #51
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    Does weapon normalization play any role in this? I found a nice looking fist weapon Fist of the Deity - Item - World of Warcraft (literally, it looks cool), but the problem is that it's a fist weapon, and it's treated like a dagger for calcuations isn't it? I normally use the red sword of courage, but the average listed damage on the fist weapon is so much higher.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindy View Post
    Does weapon normalization play any role in this? I found a nice looking fist weapon Fist of the Deity - Item - World of Warcraft (literally, it looks cool), but the problem is that it's a fist weapon, and it's treated like a dagger for calcuations isn't it? I normally use the red sword of courage, but the average listed damage on the fist weapon is so much higher.
    No, fist weapons use the same AP normalization as 1h Swords, Axes and Maces.

  13. #53
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    I've been using 15/5/51 for the past week and in 5 mans deep wounds is pretty predictably 8.5-9% of my dps - it goes up as my crit goes up so in a 25 man with full raid buffs it would be an even bigger percentage. I think it will be even better once I have a full pvp set and a geared healer. BTW, I'm not using armed to the teeth using 5/5 cruelty.

  14. #54
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    I just spec'd deep wounds today, so I'll see how it goes in solo'ing and grouping.

    Good to know fist weapons are treated like non-dagger weapons

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dredd View Post
    What's your conclusion on deep wounds, Xav?

    I've looked at a couple WWS for Patchwerk kills and looks like you got around 400 DPS out of deep wounds, which seems pretty damn good. I'm curious what your spec was with deep wounds too, if you don't mind sharing.

    This is the spec I was thinking would work, though I'm up in the air whether shifting points from armed to the teeth to cruelty is worth it. I'm assuming most of the deep wounds procs would be from SS, HS, and tclap, which already get a lot of crit from prot talents.

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
    My recent parse where I had deep wounds was skewed because I was missing a buff and patchwerk was missing a debuff, so I actually did LESS dps than I did when I didn't have deep wounds.

    I'm going to keep deep wounds in my spec for a while though and see the differences more closely over time, though. I also got significant upgrades so my DPS will be higher regardless.
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    Hell no, its Xav, he is gonna type that bitch till his fingers fall off.

  16. #56
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    I know that lacerate ticks generate 1/10th of their damage as threat. Does this hold true for DW as well?

  17. #57
    I just tested in-game, and Deep Wounds is indeed proccing from Damage Shield and Thunder Clap. It's also proccing from Shockwave. My beta feedback helped! YAY!

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by intolerantape View Post
    I just tested in-game, and Deep Wounds is indeed proccing from Damage Shield and Thunder Clap. It's also proccing from Shockwave. My beta feedback helped! YAY!
    Hmm, I'd be interested in seeing the results of a combat log on this one. I tested it over many mobs and looked at the combat log afterwards. After a damage shield crit there was no application of deep wounds, but on any other crit deep wounds was applied.

    I even went so far as to open a ticket since so many people say that it does proc off of damage shield, the GM informed me that it is working as intended (big surprise :P) in that damage shield should not proc deep wounds, deep wounds is intended for attacks that you do not passive damage that the mobs get from hitting you. I've paraphrased that but that's basically what he told me. I have the screenshot of it at home if necessary... lol...

    Grom

  19. #59
    I even went so far as to open a ticket since so many people say that it does proc off of damage shield, the GM informed me that it is working as intended (big surprise :P) in that damage shield should not proc deep wounds, deep wounds is intended for attacks that you do not passive damage that the mobs get from hitting you. I've paraphrased that but that's basically what he told me. I have the screenshot of it at home if necessary... lol...
    GMs are NEVER EVER EVER to be considered reliable sources. Especially when it comes to game mechanics - they don't know shit. And if they do, it's against the rules for them to tell you or something.

    Combat log info isn't needed on this one - it's easy enough just to stand there with a mob attacking you until Damage Shield crits. Deep Wounds will proc every time. If you really find it so hard to believe, just go out and try it.

  20. #60
    Hmm, it seems I am in error, at least when I tested it today deep wounds was applied by damage shield crits. Strange that I missed it before.

    Sorry, carry on with the discussion.

    Grom
    Last edited by Grombrindal; 12-06-2008 at 11:03 PM.

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