# Thread: Slow Weapon & Deep Wounds -- Math Challenge

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This was done rather hastily, but the math seems pretty good to me. You'll notice that I pulled a lot of numbers out of a hat (an experienced hat, but a hat nonetheless). However, this shouldn't have an impact on the result; I made a point of making sure things were shifted in favor of slow weapons. Since the result is that fast weapons are superior, my fudging shouldn't have any appreciable impact.

Heroic Strike

Weapon one (W1 for short) will be a 200 DPS weapon with a 1.6s swing speed. Weapon 2 (W2) will be a 200 DPS weapon with a 2.6s swing speed. Let's assume we have 3k AP (215 extra DPS), and that the 30% bleed bonus is present.

In 20.8s, W2 will hit 8 times, while W1 will hit 13 times.

Heroic strikes deal 259 threat + bonus damage. Let's assume the boss has a 30% armor reduction. This gives W1 a 605 Theat * 5 = 3025 threat lead over 20.8 seconds assuming infinite rage.

Devastate

Devastate hits for 83 more damage with the slow weapon. Assuming you put out on average 1 devastate per 4 GCD's, that's an extra 288 threat from devastate with a slow weapon.

Deep Wounds

W1 - 664 per hit * 0.48 * 1.3 = 414 damage/6s = 69 DPS
W2 - 830 per hit * 0.48 * 1.3 = 518 damage/6s = 86 DPS

That's a 17 DPS lead for W2. Over 20.8 seconds, that's 354 threat. However, we need to factor in DW rolling to get the full picture.

Deep Wounds Rolling

Deep wounds rolling obviously makes things more complicated. In total, W2 does 114 more damage per full DW duration. The end TPS result is going to depend on how many times you can crit.

Over 20.8s we have 13 GCD's = 13 abilities being used. I'm going to assume a 30% crit rather than 25%. This isn't too unreasonable if you have an odd piece of gear here and there, along with a couple points in cruelty. In any case, the end result will be skewed towards the slower weapon, which, if you read further, isn't a problem.

Base W1 = 13 * 0.3 * 414 = 1614 damage
Base W2 = 13 * 0.3 * 518 = 2020

Melee W1 = 13 hits * 0.1 * 414 = 538 damage
Melee W2 = 8 hits * 0.1 * 518 = 414 damage

Total difference = 282 damage.

The damage difference is actually normalized somewhat due to the faster weapon getting more crits. If Damage Shield can indeed proc DW then you might see a slight difference depending on boss swing speed. If the boss hits 10 times in our duration, let's assume 3 are avoided. Of those 7, you'll have 1 crit, resulting in 114 more threat for W2.

In total, you're looking at 296 more threat for the slow weapon. This actually decreases as your avoidance increases.

Rage

Rage modeling on this is going to be tough, since it's not just weapon rage you're considering. I'm going to attempt to fudge the numbers a bit to equalize the rage cost across weapons (W1 needs 45 more rage than W2 for those HS's), but those numbers will be very rough. Bear with me

I'm going to assume that each W1 hit generates 15 rage. This means that in order for W1 to not require more rage than W2, we have to remove two HS's (45 rage / 24 rage per HS ~= 2). This removes a solid 1210 threat from what we calculated earlier.

Summary

These numbers are over 20.8 seconds.

W1 (our 1.6s speed weapon) generates 3025 more rage from Heroic Strikes than W2 (our 2.6s weapon). Extremely rough and haphazard rage modeling tells us that unless we have infinite rage, we need to remove two HS's (1210 threat) from W1 in order to have the same rage cost as we would with W2.

Devastate with a 2.6 speed weapon gives an extra 288 threat.

While Deep Wounds does more damage with a slower weapon, the numbers are much closer than they'd appear at first glance due to the faster weapon critting more often - if you were to do only white damage, the faster weapon would do more DW damage. Interestingly enough, Damage Shield is completely in favor of a slow weapon for Deep Wounds. Summing it up, a slower weapon causes roughly 282 more threat from Deep Wounds.

3025 - 1210 - 288 - 282 = 1245 more threat for W1 over 20.8 seconds, or 60 TPS. With infinite rage, W1 gets 1210 more threat over 20.8 seconds, for a total of 118 more TPS.

Bottom Line
Faster weapons are better.

Note: Yes, I accidentally used 2.6 as my speed instead of 2.5. Fortunately, this should have only a very minor difference. I also didn't factor in HS crits. Seeing as this favors the faster speed anyway, I'm not going to go back and recalculate.
Last edited by shiz98; 11-29-2008 at 08:51 PM.

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Nice work.
Can we conclude that going deep wounds is indeed worth it over imp. revenge, armored to teeth etc. ?
About damage shield proccing deep wounds, this sounds to me like a broken mechanic. If it is the case I have a feeling it will be fixed.

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Very intrigued by this, need some solid numbers though. Its starting to look like 15/5/51 is gonna be the spec to do though with 3 points out of shield spec. My aoe dps just fails compared to DKs and Paladins right now and I'd love to find something to give it a bit more power. Definitely not gonna bother with a slower weapon though since spamming heroic strike is very realistic in alot of fights.

It'll all be a question of just how much does Deep Wounds add. Its too bad heroic strike as a rage dump keeps us locked to fast weapons. Maybe one day the scaling will get good enough that you will gain more from the higher weapon damage on a 2.5 or a 2.6.

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Greetings all!

I'm an S3 glad who has *always* loved the concept of a prot tree that could produce DPS (specifically for pvp). I mention this because my PvE experience as a MT is somewhat limited, but since Wrath that has been my role.

Right now I'm using the very slow Naxx (10) 1H drop from Kel'thuzad (Kel'Thuzad's Reach - Item - World of Warcraft). I've got an abundance of rage for both boss (single target) and "AOE" dps; rage is a non-issue with the exception of a miss sequence, which improving hit/exp will resolve. I'm inclined to believe that you'd crank out significantly more dps with a faster weapon simply because you'd be able to more effectively burn excess rage via HS/cleave.

I don't have time to produce an analysis, but here are some critical questions I'd ask:

1) What will proc deep wounds, and how does the stacking mechanic work?

2) Assuming limited talent point availability, is the DPS increase from Deep Wounds greater than the DPS loss by sacrificing Armored to the teeth? It's important to keep in mind that the benefit of armored to the teeth includes extra damage to conc blow and shockwave - call me crazy, but they do so much dps that they're in my rotation anyways (a piddley-wink devastate that might proc a SS (2 GCDs) vs a guaranteed big hit in 1 GCD seems like a simple enough decision to me).

It would be interesting to see deep wounds as a relevant choice.
Last edited by Chisgule; 12-01-2008 at 02:55 PM.

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Originally Posted by sevve
Nice work.
Can we conclude that going deep wounds is indeed worth it over imp. revenge, armored to teeth etc. ?
About damage shield proccing deep wounds, this sounds to me like a broken mechanic. If it is the case I have a feeling it will be fixed.
I'm not sure why you can't have all of the above you mentioned?
I took the base prot warrior guide and had posted this build there
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Question I posed was it worth losing some [or all] of cruelty to DW.
[There are other point(s) you can take out of there, but it gets painful]

If DW starts proving itself well even to challenge typical weapon speeds (vs Heroic Strike) and/or other builds such as pumping cruelty for synergy, while losing other synergies [like Tough/AttT] good stuff - lots of math!

Great thread here, maybe I should have posted in theories originally, but it started as a slight variation to the [terrific] Prot Warr guide.
I'm impressed how deep and how many options the Prot Warr has, <3 3.0+

Originally Posted by Chisgule
That said, I think the thread has somewhat de-railed from it's primary task. Is deep wounds better for overall dps than Armored to the Teeth? Weapon speed is certainly relevant, but not the primary question.
Chisgule, did you miss the thread subject?

I'm not sure why the focus shifted to AttT... keep it, back off Cruelty.
Maybe get a point back from Conc blow. There are options here.

I may be incorrect but I think part of this stemmed from my poking at DW on the Prot Warrior guide and turning up that we get DW, and thus threat, from many sources, including our AoE/reflection. Could that generate enough damage/threat to work into a build?

Follow-ups include a slower weapon and exchanging talent points to work it in there. Since Cruelty already was the overflow, my build took it away. Obviously there are Cruelty-DW synergies and you could go after other talent swaps, but DW-AttT isn't the only one to be had.

Originally Posted by Lightmgl
Very intrigued by this, need some solid numbers though. Its starting to look like 15/5/51 is gonna be the spec to do though with 3 points out of shield spec. My aoe dps just fails compared to DKs and Paladins right now and I'd love to find something to give it a bit more power. Definitely not gonna bother with a slower weapon though since spamming heroic strike is very realistic in alot of fights.
I wish my Warr was high enough to contribute to the numbers game =b
Do you really want to take away from Shield spec though?

On one hand I agree with your thoughts on the slower weapon, but if AOE DPS is your goal -
Keep in mind DW just gets better with more mobs while Heroic Strike does not, e.g.
-> more TC crits, more reflective shield crits, which again... you really want to take away from Shield Spec?
Last edited by CKaz; 12-01-2008 at 03:12 PM. Reason: merge 3

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What about threat multipliers for DW?

The attack power for devistate and shield slam, etc with their threat multipliers might up the threat more than DW.

When you apply a DW does it get the same threat multiplier as the ability that applied it, or is it the base threat of what we get in defensive stance plus talents, or even that?

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Originally Posted by CKaz

I wish my Warr was high enough to contribute to the numbers game =b
Do you really want to take away from Shield spec though?

On one hand I agree with your thoughts on the slower weapon, but if AOE DPS is your goal -
Keep in mind DW just gets better with more mobs while Heroic Strike does not, e.g.
-> more TC crits, more reflective shield crits, which again... you really want to take away from Shield Spec?
As it stands right now shield spec is the only place you could really remove the points and the 3% chance to block is pretty negligible once you are geared up in 10/25 man gear. My aoe threat on the other hand is completely dwarfed by a DK or Paladin at the moment and it cannot hold off of well geared aoe classes going all out which the other classes have no problem tanking vs. I fear single target threat may become trickier too as the mages are creeping over the 5000 dps barrier now and I expect a couple of the other less threat friendly classes to follow. Right now at my max I can put out around 5k-6k TPS without help from a rogue or hunter but it is also reaching the point where my mitigation is high enough that I can't always put the max out in many fights especially trash.

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I'm mostly concerned about raid boss single target tps, I noticed a few of you are dropping vigilance to free up some points to get DW but some of my dps are pushing 3k-4k dps in half naxx gear and that's a free 300-400 tps not to mention a small salvation for those that are riding you, or even upwards of 600 tps for your OT, or MT if you're the OT and having problems and 3% mitigation. Not to push the point onto vigilance so how does DW (and impale) compare to extra points in cruelty or worth dropping 2 points in anticipation? I just spec'd to this to try tonight. I'm generally MT but my pally OT is putting out crazy threat and I'm looking for the maximum possible threat build without losing all the key things. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

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Originally Posted by Lightmgl
As it stands right now shield spec is the only place you could really remove the points and the 3% chance to block is pretty negligible once you are geared up in 10/25 man gear. My aoe threat on the other hand is completely dwarfed by a DK or Paladin at the moment and it cannot hold off of well geared aoe classes going all out which the other classes have no problem tanking.
Is that a done deal? I'll defer to the experienced crowd, but again if focusing AoE-
* Aren't you OK on rage then (getting that much more attention) and if so, would it be crazy to lose 2 puncture?
I guess one reason I defend Shield Spec is the 100% rage while blocking AoE = good stuff.
But I'll defer to experience, might be my Paladin Prot upbringing making it hard for me to let Shield Spec go

But playing a bit with Puncture loss - maybe cries for dual spec, but once that came out -
> Single target uses the build from the guide here and fast weapon
> AoE uses something like the below and a slow weapon
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
[Trade Conc Blow to get back to 2/3 Puncture an option too]

And then its AttT vs maxing Cruelty. Plausible?
Last edited by CKaz; 12-02-2008 at 10:29 AM. Reason: removed some extra tweak thoughts

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About damage shield proccing deep wounds, this sounds to me like a broken mechanic. If it is the case I have a feeling it will be fixed.
Meh, it works out to something like an extra 20 DPS - not really worth nerfing.

When you apply a DW does it get the same threat multiplier as the ability that applied it, or is it the base threat of what we get in defensive stance plus talents, or even that?
I would be very surprised if it didn't simply take the damage and multiply it by the def. stance modifier.

I really can't see Deep Wounds pushing out much more than 100 DPS according to the math I did up there. It's nothing to sneeze at, but I'm not sure it it's worth a whole three points. Note that the math I did above basically assumes some points in cruelty, and the AP levels are probably only attainable with AttT.

Does anyone have any hard numbers out there? Even just some basic, rough info about DW from a recount report. WWS could be useful as well. I just seem to see a lot of people singing the praises of Deep Wounds, and since my math shows DW having a rather minor impact, I'm questioning it.

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It certainly needs proving out on single target, though even there it could help on movement fights.

But of course it's more interesting AoE where TC/Reflect/Shockwave Crits proc it.
That's threat on all the mobs outside the primary you just don't have otherwise.

So if single target threat is already rock solid, that's where DW/slow wpn gets interesting.
But to your point might not be something you want to do prior to dualspec, considering the losses.
Last edited by CKaz; 12-02-2008 at 10:12 AM.

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To me DW is not really worth it unless damage shield procs it, and according to what I've seen it does not, I haven't heard from anyone else to the contrary (only stating that it 'should' proc it, which by the tooltip on DW I agree it should). Even if it does it may not be worth it as I'll be missing points from other things that I like.

Grom

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This is a spec I've been playing with for a week or so (just to test it out). I'm not much of a theorycrafter, nor have i ever posted here before but these are my observations.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

1) I love the sqiushy sound when it procs, and its just a fun spec to play with.
2) with recount DW counts for about 5% of my total damage in 5 man tanking. Mostly AoE pulls. It did not seem to change significantly changing from a 2.6 speed down to a 1.6 speed upgrade that i recently picked up.
3) DW does proc off damage shield, I've witnessed it first hand, along with all the previously mention abilities (TC, Shockwave).

What my actual debate about my spec is whether or not 3/3 DW > 3/3 AttT. Basically is ~400 AP going to increase all my other abilities that are based off AP to make up the 5% of DW.

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Hrm, that would seem to confirm my numbers.

Looking at single target tanking, you're going to want a 1.6 speed weapon for the HS (more threat). Let's assume you fire off one devastate every 6 seconds. For everything else, we'll use the CD. Devastate does 50% weapon damage. 400ap = 29dps = 46 extra damage = 23 extra damage per devastate.

Devastate = 23/6s = 3.8 + 3 (innate threat)
Revenge = 100 / 5s = 20 dps
Shockwave = 300 / 20s = 15dps
Conc Blow = 300 / 30s = 10dps
White = 400/14 = 29dps

So we have 3 tps + 77.8 dps pre-mitigated.
DW will be somewhere below 100, depending on AP.

It's going to be close for single target threat. I think I might whip up a calculator for this.

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Originally Posted by CKaz
Is that a done deal? I'll defer to the experienced crowd, but again if focusing AoE-
* Aren't you OK on rage then (getting that much more attention) and if so, would it be crazy to lose 2 puncture?
I guess one reason I defend Shield Spec is the 100% rage while blocking AoE = good stuff.
But I'll defer to experience, might be my Paladin Prot upbringing making it hard for me to let Shield Spec go

But playing a bit with Puncture loss - maybe cries for dual spec, but once that came out -
> Single target uses the build from the guide here and fast weapon
> AoE uses something like the below and a slow weapon
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
[Trade Conc Blow to get back to 2/3 Puncture an option too]

And then its AttT vs maxing Cruelty. Plausible?
The experienced people aren't taking puncture. It is being written off as a pretty useless talent at the moment. You use devastate and sunder a fraction of what you used to due to all the new tools in your rotation and the glyphs. The only rage reduction talent that is really useful is Focused Rage unless you are going for 12+ points in arms.

Its all about what gets you the most for the least penalty and in this case from the typical 54 point prot loadout losing 3 points of shield spec is the lowest mitigation hit you can take in exchange for a threat boost.

I've decided I'm probably not going to bother with deep wounds though simply because I'm finding the aoe threat sufficient as I finish up my last few pieces of gear. Sure the Paladin and DK pull off me but if they are not there I manage just fine and as long as the mobs are getting tanked who cares? I'm finding shockwave becoming quite the monster as it was critting for just shy of 5k tonight with tricks. Thats enough burst threat to lock mobs on me pretty hard in combination with thunderclap and cleaves.

I'm still gonna switch my build though and drop the 3 points in shield spec to finish my cruelty up to 5/5. Its a nice threat boost especially in an impale build and it helps alot for when I'm dpsing in prot mode. The mitigation loss is simply negligible and not enough to make a difference vs anything in the game. Sure deep wounds would probably add more but I would rather save the debuff slot and take the all around boost. No point in choosing between AttT and Cruelty when you can just max both and still be unkillable.
Last edited by Lightmgl; 12-03-2008 at 02:16 AM.

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Here's a WWS of the other night in Naxx.

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I'm specc'ed into DW.

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What about parry stacking with a big weapon? You would see huge gains in HS (damage/threat) from parry hasted slow weapons vs fast weapons.

18. I haven't been able to keep up with the Math behind this thread, but this at least makes comparison valid for 25 mans now:

[blizzard]We changed how the game handles debuffs (ie negative state effects on targets) on creatures with Wrath of the Lich King. The old hard cap of 40 debuffs on a target no longer effectively exists. You can now apply way more debuffs to a target without them dropping off before their duration expires. The default WoW UI will not normally display all these debuffs, but they really are still there! [/blizzard]

Source: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> The Debuff Limit and You

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I don't think this has been asked specifically yet, but in running a build like this it seems the most obvious option would be a 15/5/51 type build, since we'd be aiming to maximize dps/threat by bothering to pick up DW in the first place. But, has anyone crunched some numbers on whether the 5 in fury should be 5/5 cruelty vs. 3/3 ATT and 2/5 cruelty? I'm reasonably certain that you'll get more benefit from the added AP, but that's just very quick napkin math.

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I'm thinking 3/3 Att and 2/5 Cruelty and 3/3 DW:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Also relating to prot DPS: I think Tactical Mastery is worth 2 points because Recklessness and Retaliation are on a 5 min CD now and should be used. 1 point could be moved from Improved Charge and one from Imp HS. HS will then be slightly more effective as a rage dump at 2/3. And 2/2 Imp Charge isnt as useful as 2/3 Tactical Mastery IMO, for PvP reasons and PvE use of Reckles/Retal.
Last edited by Rootkitworm; 12-03-2008 at 05:05 PM.