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Thread: 3.1 Dk threat problems

  1. #1

    3.1 Dk threat problems

    I have a lot of problems maintaining aggro in Uldaur 10. Here is a link at my armory.
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    Besides adding Armsman what can i do to help generate more threat
    Last edited by Frozenkillertank; 04-26-2009 at 02:22 PM.

  2. #2
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    I have noticed a little decrease in my threat, presumably from loss of Rune Strike frequency (in addition to the 10% parry lost I down-graded avoidance slightly in my tank set for a GOB more health).

    Judging by your armory, the first 2 things that jump out are Expertise and Avoidance. Your expertise is significantly below the soft cap, meaning any melee moves you throw are getting dodged/parried about ~15% of the time, so that'll hurt your melee, ScS, BS, and PS threat noticeably. The soft cap is 26 and up to that point you'll see a lot of improvement in your threat as each bit is a double whammy on the moves I mentioned. Avoidance (principally you'll get this by getting more real tank gear, less pvp gear, and getting rune of SS when your gear can support your def cap without SSG) will greatly improve your survival (since you can expect to get a good 8-10% more from full Naxx gearing), but it will also noticeably increase your RS proc rate. Provided you use RS well, that is a major threat component.

    If you want to squeak some more threat out of your talents, you're doing ok now, but one thing that is unequivocable: drop 1 pt from 2h Spec and finish Rage of Rivendare. Even without that additional 1 Exp (worth 33 rating from gear), 2% ALL dmg trumps 2% weapon dmg without question. BcB is fine on threat but with your gear if you're trying to do Uld10, I'd move those two points to Dirge. If you're using Reaping well, I'd wager you're trying to spam ScS frequently, and the additional RP will buff that threat and make it easier/cheaper to keep UB rolling. If you pick up CE it will give you a noticeable threat buff on trash as well, though it's frequently under-used by the people who take it.

    Beyond that it is all a matter of proper use of abilities. As an Unholy Knight, your strength in threat relies on heavy stacking of passive effects while using your single target strikes smartly to get focused threat where you need it. So, you want your diseases and UB on hitting every target all the time. DnD is good, but use it judiciously, it's generally great for the start of the pull when you can set it slightly in advance and get ahead on the rune CDs before you start full in on the targets. UB should be up and ticking at all times. ScS and RS should be your work horses after that, and will pass diseases up for total dmg done. If your gear is well setup, using avoidance smartly, RS will easily top your threat abilities, but it is best used macro'd into several other moves and click those buttons even when they're down to make sure RS fires immediately as it procs. For Unholy I macro'd it into PS, IT, BS, and ScS, but you can figure out what's smartest for you.

    So, where specifically are you having threat problems. What fight(s), what scenarios?
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I have noticed a little decrease in my threat, presumably from loss of Rune Strike frequency (in addition to the 10% parry lost I down-graded avoidance slightly in my tank set for a GOB more health).

    Judging by your armory, the first 2 things that jump out are Expertise and Avoidance. Your expertise is significantly below the soft cap, meaning any melee moves you throw are getting dodged/parried about ~15% of the time, so that'll hurt your melee, ScS, BS, and PS threat noticeably. The soft cap is 26 and up to that point you'll see a lot of improvement in your threat as each bit is a double whammy on the moves I mentioned. Avoidance (principally you'll get this by getting more real tank gear, less pvp gear, and getting rune of SS when your gear can support your def cap without SSG) will greatly improve your survival (since you can expect to get a good 8-10% more from full Naxx gearing), but it will also noticeably increase your RS proc rate. Provided you use RS well, that is a major threat component.

    If you want to squeak some more threat out of your talents, you're doing ok now, but one thing that is unequivocable: drop 1 pt from 2h Spec and finish Rage of Rivendare. Even without that additional 1 Exp (worth 33 rating from gear), 2% ALL dmg trumps 2% weapon dmg without question. BcB is fine on threat but with your gear if you're trying to do Uld10, I'd move those two points to Dirge. If you're using Reaping well, I'd wager you're trying to spam ScS frequently, and the additional RP will buff that threat and make it easier/cheaper to keep UB rolling. If you pick up CE it will give you a noticeable threat buff on trash as well, though it's frequently under-used by the people who take it.

    Beyond that it is all a matter of proper use of abilities. As an Unholy Knight, your strength in threat relies on heavy stacking of passive effects while using your single target strikes smartly to get focused threat where you need it. So, you want your diseases and UB on hitting every target all the time. DnD is good, but use it judiciously, it's generally great for the start of the pull when you can set it slightly in advance and get ahead on the rune CDs before you start full in on the targets. UB should be up and ticking at all times. ScS and RS should be your work horses after that, and will pass diseases up for total dmg done. If your gear is well setup, using avoidance smartly, RS will easily top your threat abilities, but it is best used macro'd into several other moves and click those buttons even when they're down to make sure RS fires immediately as it procs. For Unholy I macro'd it into PS, IT, BS, and ScS, but you can figure out what's smartest for you.

    So, where specifically are you having threat problems. What fight(s), what scenarios?
    Well the main problems i was having aggro steel breaker on iron council and sometimesa aurirya. These tips will defiantly help me hold threat better.

  4. #4
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    On Steelbreaker there is a particular concern with rune buffing on the dps, if they are getting 50% more dmg and they're already high on the threat table they can test your threat.

    I don't know if you have a rogue or, better in this case, hunter, who can Tricks of the Trade or Misdirect you, but that could give you a nice edge to. I was playing with it last night and was a bit disgruntled to discover that Steelbreakers footprint for getting the rune buff is bigger than his hit box. >.< But a hunter can still get the dmg buff to buff his MD threat on you.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #5
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    From my personal experience in Ulduar up to and including Hordir, in both 10 and 25 man, and everything else pre Ulduar, including 3 drakes, I can suggest the following.
    Armory Profile: The World of Warcraft Armory

    If at all possible, try to get the following out of Naxx.
    T7.5 Helm / chest / legs (to replace your 10 man version)
    This will give you 4 piece of T7.5 and the reason I suggest getting 4 pieces instead of all 5 is because Pauldrons of Unnatural Death (drops from Anub'Rekhan 25 man) are somewhat better and will give you that expertise rating that you so desperately need.
    For your cape, get the +22 Agility enchant, it will help a lot more than +3 to all resists.
    Those PvP bracers need to be upgraded into actual tanking bracers ASAP, it is hindering you a lot. Instructor 25 man drops a nice pair of bracers, you can get a pair out of heroic Old Kingdom or if worst comes to worst, buy the BOE badge bracers (for badges our out of AH, plenty of people sell them).

    Your tanking trinkets seem fine, both are very good. Personally, I find myself using Mark of Nargannon (sp?) off of heroic Malygoes whenever I need more threat; with it equipped I have about 40 expertise. Like the first person who responded to you said, you definitely want to be above the expertise soft cap, so your attacks don’t get dodged.


    Also, biggest suggestion I can give you is you are already good on defense, especially if you get tanking bracers. Try to get the sigil of awareness (to boost your DPS and in turn your threat) to replace your current sigil (Heigan in Naxx25).

    You have a great weapon and that’s a big plus, just need to tweak few little things here and there with your gear (don’t know how possible it is for you and if you run 25 mans or not, but if you do, it would help a lot).

    In regard to talents, I found frost to yield a lot more threat than unholy. Pre-patch I was unholy all the way, but now frost just seems more appealing I guess (Only drawback is AOE tanking is a bit more difficult than with unholy).

    If you get Virulence 3/3 I guarantee you that your threat will go up quite a bit, that spell hit comes into play with unholy and its diseases. Also, I believe that with dirge you get 100 threat per extra runic power it generates (500 for the extra 5 it gives) divided equally between all the mobs (so 500 for 1 mob, 250 per mob if there is 2, etc). I recommend dropping Black Ice and getting virulence and dirge. You also need 5/5 rage of rivendare. If you want, take a glimpse at my unholy tank spec (I don’t have improved unholy aura, or blood-Caked Blade, instead, I have scent of blood, which procs a lot and is a good replacement for Blessing of Sanctuary).

    Good luck and hope my bit of advice helps you.

  6. #6
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    Also note you can buy the sigil of awareness for 25 emblems of valor off the vendor now if Heigan is being super stingy.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by xKhellendrosx View Post
    Also note you can buy the sigil of awareness for 25 emblems of valor off the vendor now if Heigan is being super stingy.
    Wow, that I did nto know. Should definately get it then.

  8. #8
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    also may i recommend getting glyph of Scourge Strike instead of Dark Command since Scourge Strike hits like a truck and as unholy the less time you are spending popping IT+PS the more time you are using your big hits and freeing up GCDs

  9. #9
    Wow thanks for all the great tips ill start working on that now.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plagueblood View Post
    Wow, that I did nto know. Should definately get it then.
    that was the second thing i did when 3.1 launched plague

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenkillertank View Post
    I have a lot of problems maintaining aggro in Uldaur 10. Here is a link at my armory.
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    Besides adding Armsman what can i do to help generate more threat
    Without looking closely there are a few things:
    Someone has rightly pointed out your avoidance is quite low (esp dodge) affecting RS, however since RS is currently pretty random you'll get more consistent TPS through dmg.

    Drop enchanting for something more useful like JC, it'll go better with mining and allow you to have the monarch crab trinket which is BiS pre Ulduar 25 (which you can blow to raise your RS chance when you're falling behind on threat).
    It'll also allow you to get better gems, most notably stam in your case as 27k health unbuffed is low for UD 10.

    Drop some of your defense gems (try to stay around 540 until you fix your health/TPS issues) and use stam/strength or strength, str will give more dmg and increase parry (more RS's)

    Get rid on the pvp bracers, almost anything is better than those.. the enchant is great, res is hopeless.

    Enchants:
    Gloves: Get armsman, it'll make a big difference
    Cloak: 22 agi. (3 to all resistances? oh dear.)
    Boots: 22 stam or if you're really keen on threat icewalker.
    Shoulders: go farm hodir rep and get an actual tanking enchant.

    Spec:
    I know every spec can tank but personally I find unholy the weakest, frost will generally do more TPS and blood has better survivabilty.
    Unholy is better at trash.. but who cares? I'm guess you're worried about boss threat.

    Personally I'm blood tanking and find it pretty strong on boss fights, this spec or a slight variation depending on your tastes should do you well.
    Someone who knows more about frost tanking builds may be able to help you better.

    Get Rawr and Tankpoints to help you find upgrades and measure yourself.

    Hope this helps.

  12. #12
    First to clear up a few things. Thanks for the tip on sigil of awareness i already had it since dps pre 3.1 was my main choice and next the only reason had 3 resistence was that i bought the cloak a day or two ago and havent go the enchant yet but thanks for the tip on 22 agi.

  13. #13
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    I tried this spec today and found the DPS to be very good. It is one of the best one I have found so far.

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

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    I'm taking a look at your spec, and I like the streamlining, but I'd like to offer a few points of advice as well.

    Blood Caked Blade is a very iffy subject for me as far as where to spend talent points. I like the talent itself, however it's a melee attack which can add for a chance to be parry gibbed. And the damage is not that amazing. For DPS its a good choice, for a tank it's questionable.

    Personally, I'd drop those points and put them in ravenous dead. The strength you get from the talent is a nice increase to your AP.

    I'd also say to get rid of unholy presence and finish off Rage of Rivendare and put the other in ravenous dead.

    I'd also consider perhaps swapping improved AMS and AMZ with points in Desecration. The Mitigation may be nice from both, but if you're looking for threat an increased 4% Damage won't hurt you at all.

    And as far as gemming, I'd say eliminate the 3 +16 defense gems that you have and swap in something else, either +16 Hit, +8Hit +8Exp, or +8Hit +12 Stamina.

    That will lose you almost 10 Defense however you are 14 over the soft cap So it won't be a big hit to you. I'd suggest +8Hit +8Exp. Considerring that Expertise plays a large part in Threat issues, try shooting for at least 26 Expertise. 3 +8Exp +8Hit will give you about 3 more expertise, with 1 more point in rage of rivendare you will get another. Which will give you 4 total maybe 5 depending on your current expertise rating.
    Last edited by Rialév; 04-27-2009 at 10:09 PM.

  15. #15
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    our dk tank is threat capping our entire raid. we've tried to talk with him about spec, enchants and gems but he seems to think he knows H2Play.

    I'm guessing as with any class stacking ALL one stat and the mercy of another is going to lead to major failure. All hit w/out expertise, all stam without avoidance stats just seems to be asking for trouble. We all want to talk with him about changing because we feel he's holding us back, but his I knowH2Play attitude really keeps us from engaging him. So I'm looking for supporting information. I'm not a DK and to read and filter through all of the information that is out there... well I have been reading and my head is spinning. I read frost > unholy then I read blood > all? ahmg help!

    Here's his spec:
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    TPS Report: Baal produced 3676 tps vs Full report

    His gear:
    5/5 T7.5
    Waist: Ablative Chitlin Girdle
    Boots: Sabatons of Endurance
    Rings: Badge, Titanium Earthguard Ring
    Sigil: Sigil of Haunted Dreams
    Weapon: Inevitable Defeat
    Bracers: Flamewatch Armguards
    Cloak: Plantinim Mesh Cloak
    Neck: Mark of the Unyielding
    Trinkets: Monarch Crab, Ruby Hare

    Gems and Enchants: ALL stamina enchants and gems and I mean all except the +22 Agil to cloak.

    Stats are:
    Defense: 543
    Dodge: 400 or 20.47%
    Parry: 462 or 17,23%
    Hit: 225
    Expert: 172 (23)

    Any help. Directions. LInks to other posts, sites, etc. would be sooo appreciated.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by tomyboy; 05-05-2009 at 01:41 PM. Reason: added additiona link

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomyboy View Post
    our dk tank is threat capping our entire raid. we've tried to talk with him about spec, enchants and gems but he seems to think he knows H2Play.


    Here's his spec:
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    TPS Report: Baal produced 3676 tps vs Full report

    Any help. Directions. LInks to other posts, sites, etc. would be sooo appreciated.

    Thanks in advance.
    Tomyboy,
    I used to use that spec (very close to it) and it used to be a wonderful mitigation spec, but has one of the lowest dps (threat) of any spec's I have tried. I am guessing your tank does great on taking damage, but as you show has crappy threat.
    The best thing he can do is get rid of his ghoul talents, lichborne, and maybe black ice, and put them all into dps talents (maybe necrosis and bloody strikes).


    I now use this build, which I have found to be my highest dps yet.
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    This does have a bit less survivability that other specs, because I run with great healers, but it could be modified and still be quite effective. As far as threat goes, I will pretty much rip threat off of anyone...even our well geared tanks, unless I hold back. When I am the MT and am using rune strike, no one comes close.

    Gear wise I have similar, but feel I have pretty balanced stats concerning avoidance, hit rating, and expertise.
    Last edited by Vanthus; 05-05-2009 at 03:19 PM.

  17. #17
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    Tell him to change his spec; Blood, frost or unholy but deep in one. His spec is good... for pure mitigation, but the threat is low.

    If you want more precise spec:

    Blood: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
    Last glyph: Runestrike for single threat, DnD for AOE, rune tap for survivability

    Frost: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
    Last glyph: frost strike for single, DnD for AOE

    Unholy: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
    Last glyph: scourge strike maybe, not sure, I havent tanked in unholy since 3.1.


    These are some basic spec; there is a lot of possible variation and many peoples would argue about a few points, but it should improve his agro over his spec.

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