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Thread: Blood DK Tank Discussion

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonnamefail View Post
    Blood = Highest EH/ST Threat
    Unholy = Best magical mitigation/AoE Threat
    Frost = Balanced AoE & ST Threat/Best Physical Mitigation
    This is the classic descriptors, but I don't think they're terribly accurate anymore.

    I'd be more inclined to say it like this:

    Blood = best suited with health stacking for survival, powerful 1-3 target threat, least convenient aoe threat.

    Frost = strongest passive survival tools, weakest survival CDs, strong burst threat on one or unlimited targets.

    Unholy = strongest anti-magic tools, strong survival against large numbers of mobs, heavy unlimited target dot threat.


    For apparent mitigation, I've seen the best results as Blood where heavy self-healing can make it appear as if you're taking far less damage, I also aoe tank like nobody's business as Blood. My single target threat is still stronger with Frost than Blood. Unholy is often my best threat spec, and large amounts of that are stacked dots, but it also ends up feeling most vulnerable to hard hitting bosses. These are all reactions from my specs and play styles though.
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  2. #62
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    Having tanked all 5 man content, Naxx10 and about a third of Uld10 as a frost tank I have the following to bring to this discussion.

    Frost is the current Best AoE threat generation spec.

    I am beginning to experiment with Blood for boss fights that need more single target threat.

    That being said my crit % sits around 12%, so Might of Mograine in 3.2 seems like a useless talent to me.

    Blood worms? Great for solo, maybe decent for 5mans, but in the AoE Damage Fest that is raiding in Wrath, they die (I assume) before they do much good.

    Will of the Necropolis, with great healers, geared in t7.5+, I regularly spend long stretches of time with incoming damage completely balancing incoming healing, so I may be at 30% or so for an uncomfortably long period of time, that extra damage reduction seems like a good thing.

    Death Rune Mastery, Seems pretty pointless if you take improved Death Strike. Those F/U runes make death strikes happen. Even if I have the death runes I am likely to use them to spam deathstrikes.

    Dark Conviction/Bloody Vengeance: 12% crit, improving it to 17% isn't worth the six talent points I can use for Scent of Blood Improved Blood Aura, Spell Deflection and other survive more talents.

    Improved Icy Touch, used only to start diseases, after that I am death striking with those runes

    Morbitity, worth three points because blood AoE threat is so terrible

    That being said, here is my tentative blood spec:

    53/5/13

  3. #63
    What glyphs do you plan to use in your spec?? And why did you take DRW?? Your spec isn't bad but I definitely disagree with some things.

    Mark of Blood = Completely useless raid talent but fantastic for soloing content. The common confusion from this talent is that people think it is mitigating damage but the heal will come after the damage done.

    Imp Blood Presence = Is again a completely useless raid talent as it only provides you 4% healing from the damage you do.. the 10% extra heal component is only when you are in BP

    Butchery = Not even a raid talent

    WotN = I want to pick this up in my tank build because its a tank talent so deep in the tree but I simply can't justify spending 3 points on it. Ive raided both with and without it and have noticed no difference at all

    Rune Tap = A lot of tanks take this, as they like the personal healthstone but I find my rune's are always on CD and think that the only time id ever want to use it i wouldn't be able to. Yes I can use blood tap but thats always on CD as well coz I needed it to save my rotation due to bad RNG.

    With blood your either going to do the 2xDS 2xDS route or the 2xDS 4xHS, seeing as you picked the DS route why take subversion? Even as a HS spammer its a weak talent at best

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrawn View Post
    Morbitity, worth three points because blood AoE threat is so terrible
    Moribity is worth 3 talents points because of its boost to DC, when glyphed and spec correctly (DRM/Sudden Doom) DC becomes a large component in my damage (thus threat) and Sudden doom isn't that great without DRM.

    Something you didn't pick up was Necrosis, which is by far point for point then a lot of the threat talents in the blood tree and a hell of a lot better than ravenous dead as it effects not only our white hits but rune strikes as well.

    Bloody Vengeance is 1% extra damage per point, most definitely worth it no matter which way you look at it!
    Last edited by toonnamefail; 08-10-2009 at 04:19 PM. Reason: misquoted

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolvey View Post
    ok here i go, ive recently only got 'duel spec' cuz i perfected my dps!, so now im onto tanking, firstly. ive yet too see any1 with 'improved blood presence' as blood tanks massive healing is basically half the reason we stay alive. so having the extra 4% heal is always good. 2nd, why has no1 got 'pestilance'in there rotation as this will help threat in mob situations. and ive noticed that blood tanks are gr8 on single target encounters, but struggle on mobs some what, any advice to help the mob encounters?
    4% healing on the damage you are doing as a tank is negligible at best and is almost always going to be overheal. Pestilence is definitely in a multimob rotation but here we mostly discuss raid encounters which to a large part is ST.

    Grats on perfecting dps btw... so many DK's on my server fail at it!

  5. #65
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    Unless something has changed drastically on the math that I have not seen (which is possible, I haven't been paying attention since 3.1 dropped) Necrosis is a mediocre tank talent for blood at best, because it is a small percentage and is mitigated by spell mitigation where as blood is geared more towards physical.

    Bloody vengeance 1% per point is a good number for DPS, which crits often, I can't justify 5 points in crit, which is a borderline useless stat for a tank. However at 17% crit I would be looking at one crit every 6-7 hits, which means I would need 21 hits every 30 seconds to maintain maximum uptime on that 3%. With my current weapon and haste I have about 12-13 from auto attacks. IT-PS-DS-HS-HS-DC-DS-DS-HS-HS-DC-DC. Which means I should reach full stacks at about 22-25 seconds into the fight, if I can maintain a tight rotation, that should stay as new stacks refresh the 30 sec. duration (correct me if I am wrong) I'll try it out with WWS and a boss target dummy

    Reflexive heals from boss hits at 4% of max health at 37k health pool. This is equivalent to a hot tick every time you get hit, not bad, not great, but not bad at all. And up to 80% of your health healed over 20 sec.

    I need to play with blood more to see if DC is worth it, rune dumps should happen, but

    Eh, I am just under informed at the moment, I'll make some modifications and play with it later.

    PS, since when does necrosis effect rune strike, tool tip reads auto attacks only.
    Last edited by Arrawn; 08-10-2009 at 09:29 PM. Reason: Rune strike and Necrosis

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrawn View Post
    Unless something has changed drastically on the math that I have not seen (which is possible, I haven't been paying attention since 3.1 dropped) Necrosis is a mediocre tank talent for blood at best, because it is a small percentage and is mitigated by spell mitigation where as blood is geared more towards physical.
    Nothing has drastically changed, it is and always has been an amazing talent for threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrawn View Post
    Bloody vengeance 1% per point is a good number for DPS, which crits often, I can't justify 5 points in crit, which is a borderline useless stat for a tank. However at 17% crit I would be looking at one crit every 6-7 hits, which means I would need 21 hits every 30 seconds to maintain maximum uptime on that 3%. With my current weapon and haste I have about 12-13 from auto attacks. IT-PS-DS-HS-HS-DC-DS-DS-HS-HS-DC-DC. Which means I should reach full stacks at about 22-25 seconds into the fight, if I can maintain a tight rotation, that should stay as new stacks refresh the 30 sec. duration (correct me if I am wrong) I'll try it out with WWS and a boss target dummy.
    We have 1 (yup only 1) real threat modified attack and thats RS (DND is on NO tanks rotation). A vast majority of our threat comes from DPS so those talents you refer to as dps talents i refer to as threat talents. Also Subversion adds 9% crit to HS, Imp DS gives 6% to DS and RoRS gives 10% to RS. Add some raid buffs (Kings/GoTW) raid synergy (5% crit from a fez druid or fury warrior) and i think you'll find your at a very healthy crit rate and will not only get the stacks up fast but have little trouble in maintaining them


    Quote Originally Posted by Arrawn View Post
    Reflexive heals from boss hits at 4% of max health at 37k health pool. This is equivalent to a hot tick every time you get hit, not bad, not great, but not bad at all. And up to 80% of your health healed over 20 sec.
    If you think a single tick from a hot is going to make the difference than i suggest you might want to find yourself some new healers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrawn View Post
    I need to play with blood more to see if DC is worth it, rune dumps should happen.
    As i said with DC glyphed and being spec'd into Morb, DRM (For 4xHS rotation) and SD, the coil is a large amount of my damage done. Seeing as the 4xHS rotation isn't for you I'm going to assume its probably not that optimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrawn View Post
    Eh, I am just under informed at the moment, I'll make some modifications and play with it later.
    All good, you did come to the right place for questions to be answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrawn View Post
    PS, since when does necrosis effect rune strike, tool tip reads auto attacks only.
    Since always, this is what makes Necrosis so damn good seeing as RS hits so damn hard!

  7. #67
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    I would be interested in seeing a blue, or a WWS (which I could generate myself I guess) that shows necrosis effecting rune strike.

    It is also my understanding that blood is not as good at total mitigation as frost (which to be honest is what I have tanked the most as, in what is considered a sub optimal build, but it suits my playstyle) but self healing was a bigger part of the build.

    I am working through the difficulties of the blood spec, I haven't fully agreed with any spec in this thread, including my own, I need to do some more math on the subject.

  8. #68
    Why wouldn't it effect RS?? Its still an auto attack just with a damage and threat modifier. Anyway this point was proven at about page 2 of this thread but for your interest....

    WoL Damage Done - Toonnamefail

    As you can see there was like 1300 or so Melee/RS hits and 1400 odd necrosis hits (kinda odd). Also you ca see me HS crit rate in raids is ~30% as with RS and DS is a little lower than that but all ample enough to keep up BV. I think currently in my spec im running 3/3 IIT (1/3 Subversion, 3/5 Necrosis) which I'm going to change back tonight seeing as my ret pallies/shamans can cover it 10 mans.

    But you are right... Frost without doubt provides better mitigation but has a much weaker CD and lower HP pool. Self healing is a big part of blood tanking, but that doesn't mean you have to take every little bit of self healing possible. DS is all the self healing your going to need.
    Last edited by toonnamefail; 08-11-2009 at 04:08 PM.

  9. #69
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    This was a tidbit that came up in the beta when testing tanks realized it would be horribly inhibitory to the value of the talent for tanks if it didn't apply to RS, since you replace regular melee swings with RS's.

    It also used to apply to BcB strikes, but I haven't checked a parse on either in some time since I haven't had Necrosis. =)
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  10. #70
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    Blood can tank, but that doesn't make it better than frost or unholy. I don't understand why there are so many blood fanboys, if more people would try frost tanking they would see that howling blast is just win. If you want to tank as blood then it's viable, just don't expect to come out on top of frost or unholy tanks.

    Most blood tanks I see have lolspecs gimping talent points for mobidy to make up for their lack of threat abilities,(your spec as well sadly) the thing most blood tanks don't realise is that decent unholy and frost tanks don't really hold threat with dnd because it takes up too many runes, we just open with it to pick up quick threat on the mobs, after that it's about keeping diseases up on all mobs(powerfull tool for unholy) and using aoe spells such as howling blast or corpse explosion, only using strikes+diseases on single targets of course.

    I've always considered 3/3 morbidy a waste of points for anything but an unholy tank because if you're using dnd right you shouldn't need to use it more than once every 25 seconds, and on the off chance you do you just mark a mob then use said mob as a starting point for spreading diseases. Then again I have no experience with blood tanking whatsoever, I just think it looks fail in comparison..no offense. Personally I would never even consider playing a blood tank but if you like it then more power to you and I wish you good luck.

    Edit:Sorry about the necro didn't notice the post date. =)

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arencey View Post
    Blood can tank, but that doesn't make it better than frost or unholy. I don't understand why there are so many blood fanboys, if more people would try frost tanking they would see that howling blast is just win. If you want to tank as blood then it's viable, just don't expect to come out on top of frost or unholy tanks.

    Most blood tanks I see have lolspecs gimping talent points for mobidy to make up for their lack of threat abilities,(your spec as well sadly) the thing most blood tanks don't realise is that decent unholy and frost tanks don't really hold threat with dnd because it takes up too many runes, we just open with it to pick up quick threat on the mobs, after that it's about keeping diseases up on all mobs(powerfull tool for unholy) and using aoe spells such as howling blast or corpse explosion, only using strikes+diseases on single targets of course.

    I've always considered 3/3 morbidy a waste of points for anything but an unholy tank because if you're using dnd right you shouldn't need to use it more than once every 25 seconds, and on the off chance you do you just mark a mob then use said mob as a starting point for spreading diseases. Then again I have no experience with blood tanking whatsoever, I just think it looks fail in comparison..no offense. Personally I would never even consider playing a blood tank but if you like it then more power to you and I wish you good luck.

    Edit:Sorry about the necro didn't notice the post date. =)
    Blood Tanks take the 3/3 Morbidity for the extra 15% Death Coil damage, not the D&D cooldown reduction.
    This has a nice synergy with Sudden Doom from the Blood Tree.

  12. #72
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    backseat watching of Blood tanks

    Ive experienced watching a fair few blood DK's tanking while DPS'ing and also having to heal them on my Paladin in random HC's, raids etc. And I have to say, they are stupidly squishy. U may aswell re roll paladin and tank in ret. My opinion is that you have to be nuts to tank in blood.

  13. #73
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    While it's true that blood is a behind in passive mitigation, the short CD buffs that it has and the amount of self-healing that a good Blood Tank is capable of bring things to about even in my experiences. Blood Tanks you are dealing with must be the suck.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Arencey View Post
    Blood can tank, but that doesn't make it better than frost or unholy. I don't understand why there are so many blood fanboys, if more people would try frost tanking they would see that howling blast is just win. If you want to tank as blood then it's viable, just don't expect to come out on top of frost or unholy tanks.

    Most blood tanks I see have lolspecs gimping talent points for mobidy to make up for their lack of threat abilities,(your spec as well sadly) the thing most blood tanks don't realise is that decent unholy and frost tanks don't really hold threat with dnd because it takes up too many runes, we just open with it to pick up quick threat on the mobs, after that it's about keeping diseases up on all mobs(powerfull tool for unholy) and using aoe spells such as howling blast or corpse explosion, only using strikes+diseases on single targets of course.

    I've always considered 3/3 morbidy a waste of points for anything but an unholy tank because if you're using dnd right you shouldn't need to use it more than once every 25 seconds, and on the off chance you do you just mark a mob then use said mob as a starting point for spreading diseases. Then again I have no experience with blood tanking whatsoever, I just think it looks fail in comparison..no offense. Personally I would never even consider playing a blood tank but if you like it then more power to you and I wish you good luck.

    Edit:Sorry about the necro didn't notice the post date. =)
    i disagree with this completely i've been MTing for my guild since Ulduar as blood and i've had no problems keeping up with the warrior/druid, i've only had problems keeping up with pallys with their OP 'free death' talent and their massive threat generation, but since i've gotten my new axe i've had great threat generation.
    here's a link to my armory:
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arencey View Post
    Blood can tank, but that doesn't make it better than frost or unholy. I don't understand why there are so many blood fanboys,
    Because blood has the best survivability in a raid situation. Particularly in an unfamiliar progression setting.

    if more people would try frost tanking they would see that howling blast is just win. If you want to tank as blood then it's viable, just don't expect to come out on top of frost or unholy tanks.
    This is only applicable if you're talking AoE threat, and only frontloaded. This might matter if you're running heroics, but I can't think of a single raid fight where blood's ability to hold multiple mobs is a problem.

    Most blood tanks I see have lolspecs gimping talent points for mobidy to make up for their lack of threat abilities,(your spec as well sadly) the thing most blood tanks don't realise is that decent unholy and frost tanks don't really hold threat with dnd because it takes up too many runes, we just open with it to pick up quick threat on the mobs, after that it's about keeping diseases up on all mobs(powerfull tool for unholy) and using aoe spells such as howling blast or corpse explosion, only using strikes+diseases on single targets of course.
    We take morbidity for the boost to deathcoil. Though, I should probably find some points to spend on sudden doom. Maybe out of WotN, I dunno. Again, the entirety of the above paragraph makes me think that you don't raid, and only ever run heroic 5-mans. Or Naxx. AoE threat is cool and all, but single target threat and survivability are the name of the boss tanking game, and blood has both in enough supply to make them the most attractive Dk tanking tree.

    You're making broad sweeping generalizations based upon your own personal experience, which is almost always a flawed approach. It's like having a discussion about warrior tanking, and someone comes in preaching about how amazing their 0/31/40 spec is, and how you can solo ZG and old raids with it that you can't do as easily as a cookie cutter prot spec. This is all well and good and true, but no one's going to be trying to beat up Saurfang with 0/31/40.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arencey View Post
    Blood can tank, but that doesn't make it better than frost or unholy. I don't understand why there are so many blood fanboys, if more people would try frost tanking they would see that howling blast is just win. If you want to tank as blood then it's viable, just don't expect to come out on top of frost or unholy tanks.

    Most blood tanks I see have lolspecs gimping talent points for mobidy to make up for their lack of threat abilities,(your spec as well sadly) the thing most blood tanks don't realise is that decent unholy and frost tanks don't really hold threat with dnd because it takes up too many runes, we just open with it to pick up quick threat on the mobs, after that it's about keeping diseases up on all mobs(powerfull tool for unholy) and using aoe spells such as howling blast or corpse explosion, only using strikes+diseases on single targets of course.

    I've always considered 3/3 morbidy a waste of points for anything but an unholy tank because if you're using dnd right you shouldn't need to use it more than once every 25 seconds, and on the off chance you do you just mark a mob then use said mob as a starting point for spreading diseases. Then again I have no experience with blood tanking whatsoever, I just think it looks fail in comparison..no offense. Personally I would never even consider playing a blood tank but if you like it then more power to you and I wish you good luck.

    Edit:Sorry about the necro didn't notice the post date. =)

    WoW so much bad thought here. Blood is not in any way behind the other DK specs for tanking. Period. You have not tried it and you apologize for your opinion but that is just it a very wildly biased non-factual opinion. as far as a lack of threat abilities this is also untrue Blood DK's have a medium ramp up time to single target threat that is very hard to pass once rolling. Blood DK's also have a decent AOE threat mechanic.

    Want to learn more about blood before you spout again read these threads

    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...d-tanking.html
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...d-tanking.html
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...t-tanking.html
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...cs-styles.html

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayuname View Post
    Ive experienced watching a fair few blood DK's tanking while DPS'ing and also having to heal them on my Paladin in random HC's, raids etc. And I have to say, they are stupidly squishy. U may aswell re roll paladin and tank in ret. My opinion is that you have to be nuts to tank in blood.
    Are you talking about Blood speced DK's or DK's that tank in Blood presence.. The former is probably your luck with who you have been grouped with. The former is a DK that needs to learn there class pronto... For the most part as DK Tank you will be in Frost presence regardless of spec.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaubade View Post
    WoW so much bad thought here. Blood is not in any way behind the other DK specs for tanking. Period. You have not tried it and you apologize for your opinion but that is just it a very wildly biased non-factual opinion. as far as a lack of threat abilities this is also untrue Blood DK's have a medium ramp up time to single target threat that is very hard to pass once rolling. Blood DK's also have a decent AOE threat mechanic.
    Can only echo these sentiments. It baffles me sometimes to see the reactions here to blood tanking, when heading basically anywhere else it's not even a question - blood is the defacto DK tank spec and has been since 3.1, while they're all viable blood is the standard. Morbidity is far from a waste, some people must just NOT understand blood AE threat, add in the fact that it gets you to your necrosis point (A great ST threat talent for the 1 you can drop in it), and that it buffs death coil (Which IS still part of the blood tank's rotation)...

    Easymode Blood AE threat, that doesn't rely on procs like frost:
    DND, Diseases, Pest, Bloodboil, Tap Bloodboil, Death Strike, DND, spam blood boil as runes refresh. Done.

  19. #79
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    The issue with blood AoE threat is that it takes a long time, versus Frost's instant snap aggro. Much like with mitigation, nobody really cares about AoE threat over a long time, it's all about the first 5 seconds or so where your DPS are unloading wotlk-style. Blood's initial AoE threat is fairly terrible, frost's is excellent, Unholy's is alright purely through the large increases to D&D it gets. The example in the above post, for example, is over a course of something like 22 seconds until it gets to "Done." (Due to 10 second rune cooldowns), which in tanking terms is an eternity. Also, the rotation listed doesn't quite work, since D&D also costs a blood rune, meaning you can't blood boil right after you pest unless you blood tap. In fact, it more looks like:

    Using a fixed 1.5 second GCD.

    0.0: D&D - Now on cooldown for 15 seconds
    1.5: Icy Touch
    3.0: Plague strike
    4.5: Pestilence
    6.0: Blood Tap + Bloodboil (note pestilence'd diseases still haven't ticked yet, D&D and this bloodboil are your only real AoE threat so far)
    7.5: Nothing
    9.0: Nothing
    10.5: Death Strike for 2 death runes in 10 seconds
    12.0: Blood boil
    13.5: Nothing.
    15.0: D&D again.
    16.5: Nothing
    18.0: Nothing
    19.5: Nothing
    21.0: Death runes up, Blood boil
    22.5: Blood boil

    Compared to frost which has howling blast (Which can be timed with killing machine for enormous AoE threat), and you can appreciate why Frost's AoE threat feels so much better. Although if it's a one-off AoE pack, then you can use ERW to pad blood's AoE threat with extra blood boils in that timespan.

    Edit: Also blood tap won't be up for every trash pack, making blood even lower on initial aggro.
    Last edited by Maelstrom; 12-27-2009 at 03:59 AM.

  20. #80
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    DnD IS frontloaded threat, the only talent unholy gets for DnD that blood doesn't is impurity. Also, despite what you may think, that rotation works fine, You have like one spare GCD in there, which I use to swap mobs and death coil. If blood tap isn't up, you get one less initial blood boil (Which does harm initial aggro some).
    You can go try it out if you disbelieve.

    It's kind of hard to killing machine Howling Blast the opening second of a pull as well, and a non-crit HB isn't really that fantastic, along the same lines.

    Nobody is saying that Blood has the best AE threat, but to say it has none is ridiculous. After over a year of DK tanking, the only fight I ever found to be annoying to tank as any spec is add duty on 3D, everything else is perfectly fine even as blood - people that can't hold aggro just need to play better, not respec. Along those lines, the rotation I listed works perfectly well, just keep target swapping (Which is true for ANY tank AE tanking. If you're not you're screwing up).

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