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Thread: Blood DK Tank Discussion

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by timtim89 View Post
    Can i ask which glyphs do u use?
    From my setup which is purely to max out single target TPS im using Dark Death, Death Strike and Rune Strike. I find that with my setup i gain the most benefit in every encounter i step into. DnD can definitely have it's uses but as a raid glpyh it falls pretty far from the tree with it's only real benefits on trash/Thorim Arena/Razorscale adds to which i wouldn't specifically glyph for.

    With the disease glyph (which i have played around with) I found 1 point epidemic would mean you could use your last death rune for pestilence but as you mentioned spell hit means it missed which messed things up quite consistantly and seeing as pestilence itself no longer does damage the difference between pest/HS and IT/PS is extremely minimal. To me this is more of an easymode glyph.

    The only other glyph I would comment on would be VB, and extra 10s on VB is nice but I rarely use this these days. I do use it as an OH CRAP button but by the stage 20s has passed the crisis is averted, the only other time I use it is ~10% before the bosses die just to make like that much easier for the healers when we approach the killshot. I wouldn't recommend spec UB for a Blood build by any means either, if its more AoE threat you are after either spec heavy unholy or heavy frost.

    <4

  2. #42
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    Yes, the Disease glyph does go off spell hit. Then again, so does Icy Touch, so TBH you've got the same chances either way. Blood's rotation seems to change a little bit depending on the Death Runes you end up with because they aren't always the same, and it's also different depending on the situation. Sometimes you don't need any health back or it's an easier fight and you can use all four Death Runes to get in some extra Heart Strikes, sometimes you're taking large hits and even though they're Death Runes you're going to use them for Death Strike for the extra healing you receive in return.

    TBH, I usually just work it in when I get the chance and see the diseases getting low. Sometimes I'll pop Blood Tap and use the new Death Rune to cast it and get them going again.

    And Toonname, the difference isn't between just Pest/HS and IT/PS. It's between IT/PS HS/HS and Pest/HS DS, or in the case of Death Runes, Pest/HS HS/HS. Generally a DS and HS is going to be more threat for me than HS/HS and IT/PS, as well as the extra bit of healing from the DS, which is what a blood spec tank focuses on quite a bit, self healing abilities, and three HS's are going to be more than two and a couple lower damage abilities for diseases, not to mention that I take the increased crit chance on HS.

    It's all personal preferrence; that's just the way I like to do it. Dark Death is also an excellent rune, but I find that one shines much more with an Unholy tanking build than a Blood spec due to the increased spell damage with Impurity.

  3. #43
    Whilst I only ever tank unholy for Thorim's arena I do not have Dark Death glyphed because the build is focused around AoE damage. I don't use DS as a heal all that often because I have some amazing healers on my back and with Xperl I can see all my incoming heals before they have landed so I generally know im going to be safe. So I have a lot of HS spamming which is generating a lot of Sudden Doom procs which is the sole reason for picking up that glyph, now I don't know numbers but id go as far to say the glyph for both builds is pretty much on par.

  4. #44
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    Generally my overall damage done by Death Coil is equal to the overall damage done by Deathstrike, each accounting for about 10% of my total damage. On number of uses it's about a 3:2 ratio, but DC misses a lot more than DS. I have glyph and talents for both DS and DC.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanthus View Post
    Generally my overall damage done by Death Coil is equal to the overall damage done by Deathstrike, each accounting for about 10% of my total damage. On number of uses it's about a 3:2 ratio, but DC misses a lot more than DS. I have glyph and talents for both DS and DC.
    Good call Van, I didnt think to check my logs (which I have now) and DC is actually doing more damage over the whole raid than DS for me, granted I use my death runes for HS which will grant more RP for DC and more Sudden Doom procs 2

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonnamefail View Post
    because I have some amazing healers on my back
    And that's the difference, every raid my DK has ever tanked is a PUG sadly, so DS is quite a welcome ability for me. =\

  7. #47
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    I like Frost spec.

    I use frost and I started with this spec here.

    That Tanks the Cake

    Why are there never very many Frost threads?

  8. #48
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    Hands down even after the nerfs Unholy is still the best AoE tanking spec for a DK imo. Right now I am sitting on 10-5-56 which on a group pull puts out around 2500+ dps and holds aggro w/o any problems. However with game progression there are less and less AoE pulls to be made. Naxx is like a playground for me, and then there's Ulduarr.....full of single pulls and CC'd pulls with no AoE allowed. Sorta puts me in a situation to start looking into a new way to tank. This thread's given me a lot of insight into Blood.

    On that note however I have to ask is it really necessary to spec all the way down Blood to be a succesful tank? I have found a spec I like (39-27-5) but wonder if it would be as good as going deeper into Blood. Is it really necessary to be 51+ into any tree or is a more unorthadox way of thinking actually good here?

  9. #49
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    @ Shaggai

    For the most part, it's because the other specs are just superior. Unholy is king for AoE threat right now, even without Howling Blast, while Blood puts out superior TPS numbers for single and dual target due to Heart Strike and the armor pen it gets from the spec.

    @ Volkum

    41 points is almost a requirement for any good Blood build, due to Heart Strike. It's an amazing ability, and the cleave it applies as well gives you extra chances for proccing Sudden Doom, as well as better AoE threat in a build that already lacks it quite a bit. Armor pen for increased threat, and a couple survivability cooldowns are amazing tools as well.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volkum View Post
    On that note however I have to ask is it really necessary to spec all the way down Blood to be a succesful tank? I have found a spec I like (39-27-5) but wonder if it would be as good as going deeper into Blood. Is it really necessary to be 51+ into any tree or is a more unorthadox way of thinking actually good here?
    I wouldn't say it's "necesary" because it's always good to encourage experimenting with different and new specs. I'm curious as to what talents in frost you're taking that you think outweight the benefits of Might of Mograine, Heart Srike and Blood Gorged. I'm guessing you're going up to imp DS and doing a DS based rotation, or are you skipping imp DS and using Obliterate instead? KM and Glaciar Rot are the good talents in the 4th and 5th frost tier, but they don't really work with that kind of rotation. So how are you working around that?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molohk View Post
    I wouldn't say it's "necesary" because it's always good to encourage experimenting with different and new specs. I'm curious as to what talents in frost you're taking that you think outweight the benefits of Might of Mograine, Heart Srike and Blood Gorged. I'm guessing you're going up to imp DS and doing a DS based rotation, or are you skipping imp DS and using Obliterate instead? KM and Glaciar Rot are the good talents in the 4th and 5th frost tier, but they don't really work with that kind of rotation. So how are you working around that?

    After taking a second look I pulled 2 points out of Frost and 2 points out of Unholy to drop into Blood making it 43-23-5. This is what I came up with. Input?

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    This is what I was originally thinking about.

    The World of Warcraft Armory

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crono View Post
    @ Shaggai

    For the most part, it's because the other specs are just superior. Unholy is king for AoE threat right now, even without Howling Blast, while Blood puts out superior TPS numbers for single and dual target due to Heart Strike and the armor pen it gets from the spec.
    Threat is true, but Damage mitigation, Frost is better, I get told all the time how I am much easier to heal then other DK's. And I hold threat just fine. I never lose aggro anymore. I use to lose it a lot when I first started tanking, Now I am very proficient with pumping out the threat. I understand Frost tanking much better now. The only time I lose agg is when a Pally tank who is OT or just DPS'ing this fight will purposely try to take it.

    That Tanks the Cake

  13. #53
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    Some observations on that spec:

    1) Why are you speccing for Killing Machine? you don't have FS or HB, so it would only give you free ITs which aren't really that great. KM is ment to be used with FS or HB, I really don't think it's worth that many points just to get a free IT, especially with the nerfed IT.

    2) I noticed you're speccing for Annihilation, imp DS and HS, so which is your primary strike and what does yoru rotation look like? Oblit is probably not very good without the buffs you get in the frost tree. And if you're not using Oblit, the 3% crit doesn't seem half as good as taking Subversion or Sudden Doom.

    3) With a blood spec, most of your damage will be physical, especially if you're not specced for sudden doom. Speccing for Black Ice will not help you much, unless you're planning on a heavy death coil rotation, in which case you're probably better off going into unholy and getting the talents to improve your RP generation.

    4) Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems like you're going through a lot of trouble to spec for Rigid Dreadplate, and you're spending a lot of points in talents that only help you partially.

    It seems like the last 15 points you put into frost could serve you much better elsewhere. Sudden doom, will of the necropolis, might of mograin, blood gorged, epidemic, icy talons, they're all probably better than black ice, annihilation and killing machine.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molohk View Post
    Some observations on that spec:

    1) Why are you speccing for Killing Machine? you don't have FS or HB, so it would only give you free ITs which aren't really that great. KM is ment to be used with FS or HB, I really don't think it's worth that many points just to get a free IT, especially with the nerfed IT.

    2) I noticed you're speccing for Annihilation, imp DS and HS, so which is your primary strike and what does yoru rotation look like? Oblit is probably not very good without the buffs you get in the frost tree. And if you're not using Oblit, the 3% crit doesn't seem half as good as taking Subversion or Sudden Doom.

    3) With a blood spec, most of your damage will be physical, especially if you're not specced for sudden doom. Speccing for Black Ice will not help you much, unless you're planning on a heavy death coil rotation, in which case you're probably better off going into unholy and getting the talents to improve your RP generation.

    4) Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems like you're going through a lot of trouble to spec for Rigid Dreadplate, and you're spending a lot of points in talents that only help you partially.

    It seems like the last 15 points you put into frost could serve you much better elsewhere. Sudden doom, will of the necropolis, might of mograin, blood gorged, epidemic, icy talons, they're all probably better than black ice, annihilation and killing machine.
    When I'm tanking or DPS'ing most of my dmg comes from my IT even as Unholy oddly enough which is why I was looking at the particular set of Frost TP's. More dmg and more crit from IT when it comes up in rotation and a free one now and then thrown in the mix just seemed ideal. Having that jumbled into a Blood tanking rotation to me sounds like more TPS.

    Reason I'm bringing my questions forward is simply because I have limited to no experience with anything but the Unholy tree for tanking. So if my take on it is completely FUBAR please by all means continue to criticize and point me in the right direction.

    In Blood is it a waste to spec into Imp DS and HS both? Is that a rotation jumble?

  15. #55
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    If most of your damage is coming from IT, I suspect something is very wrong with your rotation. What rotation are you using?
    theory is theory .. and theorycrafting just happens to be the worst of the worst of theories -Ómen lvl 80 DK of Archimonde

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhorin View Post
    If most of your damage is coming from IT, I suspect something is very wrong with your rotation. What rotation are you using?
    Rotation on pulls: DnD, IT, Plague, Pest, Unholy Blight

    Once all my AoE is up there is no worry of threat loss.

    Move into: SS, SS, SS, IT, Pest (rinse and repeat).

    After a long fight IT builds up the dmg output and is generally third to Melee and SS, not the highest. But it is does have a lot of output.

  17. #57
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    In blood ppl usually spec for both imp DS and HS, and use both in their rotations, they can also chose whether they want to use DS or HS primarily (most ppl use HS primarily, but someone posted math showing DS is also very viable).

    I'm kind of surprised to learn IT does so much damage for you. There used to be some frost specs that spammed IT because it was so good, but since they nerfed the damage from IT most people only use it to apply the frost fever disease.

    I really think you're overestimating IT, and I'm not sure how IT can be your top damage skill even as Unholy (I'm still not sure what kind of rotation could yield these results as Blood or Unholy). From the rune usage point of view, I really doubt using IT+PS (buffed IT) would be more effective use of your UF runes than using an improved DS, and I'm absolutely certain that IT cannot match a HS for your death runes.

  18. #58
    I can definitely understand the want to not spec too heavy into particular trees to try and gain the benefits from most (VotW/BS or some form of blood/frost) tank talents... it makes sense. But in doing so you seriously hamper your MT threat and there is no if/buts about it, some people come in here posting "my threat is fine" and "no1 closes in on me in threat" but they obviously havn't experienced those heavy lock/mages in hodir/vezax or those ferals/rogues on XT.

    Having said that if your threat at the moment is fine with the dps your "carrying" in the raid then stick to it, the extra mitigation is no doubt very helpful to your healers but once your dps either gears up or lrn2play be ready for it. The way it stands now;

    Blood = Highest EH/ST Threat
    Unholy = Best magical mitigation/AoE Threat
    Frost = Balanced AoE & ST Threat/Best Physical Mitigation

    With DK's being pushed as the favourable tank in more and more hardmodes and "all" top end DK's stacking EH Blood becomes a greater spec as it scales well when stacking Stam.

    I am also baffled however at IT being a major damage source, are we talking IT on its own or combined with Frost Fever?? Either way I'm still boggled. I have tanked as Frost before and respec back whenever our enh shaman is afk and IT is still well behind RS/FS/Melee/Oblit/HB, ill try and find a parse but im pretty sure it falls behind BS as well

  19. #59
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    If Icy Touch is coming up third to melee and SS, where are your Rune Strikes? Usually my top three consist of Heart Strike, Melee, and Rune Strike/Death Strike, usually the two of them come in very close to each other. Is it macro'd into your other abilities at all?

    And Shaggai, you've got slightly more mitigation, but you've got less health than a blood specced DK and the small amount of parry is slightly higher avoidance. On top of that you gain abilities like Vampiric Blood, which is nothing short of amazing, and Improved Death Strike for increased healing when needed, as well as WotN for the big hitters. But in the end it of course comes down to personal preferrence. I prefer the threat increase over the slightly higher damage reduction because of gimmick fights with large DPS increases such as Hodir and the like.

  20. #60
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    ok here i go, ive recently only got 'duel spec' cuz i perfected my dps!, so now im onto tanking, firstly. ive yet too see any1 with 'improved blood presence' as blood tanks massive healing is basically half the reason we stay alive. so having the extra 4% heal is always good. 2nd, why has no1 got 'pestilance'in there rotation as this will help threat in mob situations. and ive noticed that blood tanks are gr8 on single target encounters, but struggle on mobs some what, any advice to help the mob encounters?

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