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Thread: Cap limits at lv80 ?

  1. #1
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    Cap limits at lv80 ?

    Hi!
    so I have tried to find this information everywhere but is not abled to so i try here.

    At lv 80 what is the folowing cap (soft cap) for

    1. Defence (for critt imune)
    2. Expertise
    3. Hit

    Thx
    // Goldheart

  2. #2
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    The answers are out there, basically remember that the % remains constant - you will always need 5.6% crit immunity, 9% hit, approx 6% expertise to eliminate dodges and 12% to eliminate parries when fighting a mob 3 levels higher than you. The only thing that changes is the conversion of ratings to the actual values as you increase in level. At 80, you will need 667 defense rating giving you 540 defense. For hit and expertise, I don't know off the top of my head. Also, these are stats that should come naturally with gear, and are not necessarily stats I would gem for. I think the most beneficial stats to gem for are still stam and strength, although I will put in the caveat that if bliz itemizes horribly and doesn't give us gear with hit and expertise, it might be worth considering mixing in those gems.

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  3. #3
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    DEFENCE
    As noted above you need to reach 540 defence points to be crit immune.

    With diminishing returns there is also a ceiling for when defence gains you nothing. Someone could correct me on this but I think it's something like 660 defence points (not to to be confused by defence rating!)

    EXPERTISE
    Regarding expertise the old figures where:
    Dodge cap: 6.5%
    Parry cap: There is no hard figure but around 12-15%

    At level 80 1% expertise requires 32,79 expertise rating. So reach the "cap" here in terms of rating it means:
    Dodge cap: 6.5 x 32,79 ≈ 214 expertise rating
    Parry cap: 12 to 15 x 32,79 ≈ 394 to 492 expertise rating

    HIT RATING
    As before a prot warrior primarily wants to gain 100% chance to hit with a single handed weapon and for yellow attacks (i.e. shield slam, bash etc). This requires 9% +hit and at level 80 that means 9 x 32,78 = 295 rating.

    SUMMARY
    Defence: 540 points
    Expertise (dodge): 214 expertise rating
    Expertise (parry): 400-500 expertise rating
    Hit: 295 hit rating

    QUESTIONS
    How much expertise rating do you need for 1 expertise point at lvl 80? Before you had 1 point counting for 0,25% expertise which would mean 4 points = 1 % or 32,79 rating. This is quite interesting for the racial benefits from weapons some races get.
    Last edited by Roarc; 11-20-2008 at 04:46 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thugs View Post
    DEFENCE

    EXPERTISE
    Regarding expertise the old figures where:
    Dodge cap: 6.5%
    Parry cap: There is no hard figure but around 12-15%
    Where did the info for dodge come from? For an 83 boss I believe it's closer to 9%. Also with expertise, again no one knows the actual parry cap, but it's higher than 15%. I have been up to 16.5% dodge parry reduction and still experienced 2 parries in a row.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Where did the info for dodge come from? For an 83 boss I believe it's closer to 9%. Also with expertise, again no one knows the actual parry cap, but it's higher than 15%. I have been up to 16.5% dodge parry reduction and still experienced 2 parries in a row.
    Pretty sure that's the correct value for dodge. I recall hitting 6.5% at 70 and checked to make sure I didn't get any more dodges.

    As for the parry - parry varies greatly from boss to boss.

  6. #6
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    as long as mechanics haven't changed, 6.5% was the tested dodge percentage, and I believe the parry mechanic was tested here to be around 14.25%

    and I don't think there is a cap on Defense SKILL in terms of diminishing returns, unless you calculated that 660 defense skill somehow nets you the Max Dodge cap (hardcoded) AND the Max Parry cap (hardcoded).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    I don't think there is a cap on Defense SKILL in terms of diminishing returns, unless you calculated that 660 defense skill somehow nets you the Max Dodge cap (hardcoded) AND the Max Parry cap (hardcoded).
    I beleive this is the case, as I understand it only avoidance has diminishing returns, not the block rating gained from defense.

  8. #8
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    same, no DR on block rating, and the DR on Dodge and Parry are on a set scale, towards infinity, but it is hardcoded to just "stop" at set %. So unless 660 defense skill puts you at both of these caps, there is no defense cap.

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  9. #9
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    Even if it did, you would still get miss out of it. Miss is on DR, but I would wager you don't have any gear that adds miss % specifically while you will have items with dodge rating and parry rating. The DR is calculated over all your dodge or all your parry, so you will cap those out (if that is even possible) before you cap out miss %.

  10. #10
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    Just in case you are wondering, the def cap is 689 rating from gear:

    540 skill - 400 baseline = 140 skill needed

    140 * 4.918498039 (taken from Ratingbuster on EJ) = 688.59 => 689 rating needed.

    Those 140 defense grant you 5.6% dodge and parry, before diminishing returns. Add this to your dodge and parry from gear, and you are still far from the hard cap

  11. #11
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    agreed, and yes 689 is the rating you need to basically become uncrittable at level 80 against 83 raid bosses. thanks for that Morgo, but again I must emphasize, that this is NOT a CAP. it is the crit cap, not the defense cap, you will STILL want Defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  12. #12
    I too would like to know what our "new" hit; expertise and defense should be at lvl 80) I was always under the impression, the old "lvl 70" ideal caps were

    142 for Hit. (One hander with a shield)
    490 for Defense (which I assume to be 540 now)
    and
    Expertise was
    76 with Wep. Mastery
    68 with Defiance
    52 with both.

    So am I to understand that the hit cap for one handers with a shield went from 142 to 295?

    HIT RATING
    As before a prot warrior primarily wants to gain 100% chance to hit with a single handed weapon and for yellow attacks (i.e. shield slam, bash etc). This requires 9% +hit and at level 80 that means 9 x 32,78 = 295 rating.
    Expertise??

    Sorry; I am having a hard time computing

    Expertise (dodge): 214 expertise rating
    Expertise (parry): 400-500 expertise rating

  13. #13
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    yes, those are the ratings you need to completely remove dodge from your hit table against a level 83 boss mob, and likewise for parry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    agreed, and yes 689 is the rating you need to basically become uncrittable at level 80 against 83 raid bosses. thanks for that Morgo, but again I must emphasize, that this is NOT a CAP. it is the crit cap, not the defense cap, you will STILL want Defense.
    Right. From what I understand, Defense rating over 540 raises the ceiling, so to speak, for what % at which your dodge and parry are greatly affected by diminishing returns. This, however, does not mean that the number of dodge and parry you may have, on top of defense, is different. Those specific dodge and parry numbers still have the same curve that is subject to diminishing returns as they grow greater in number, but the defense is the base from which they start. So, in essence, it is not the ceiling that you raise with Defense, but the foundation.

    Even before diminishing returns, Defense was good, many end game tanks had 540+ Defense at level 70 because of the gear. Even so, when socketing you will have to determine what is better for a specific socket, if you are talking about gemming for either defense, dodge or parry. And, of course, there is always stamina to consider. Either way, 540 is the lowest foundation you can build from, but certainly not the highest.
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  15. #15
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    Since we get expertise from racials and talents, can someone tell me what expertise "skill" we need to remove dodge from the table? Rating requires me to do the math, and Im lazy
    The only thing better than being able to tank, is realizing that you no longer need to prove that you can.


  16. #16
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    26 to remove dodge.
    55 to remove parry.

  17. #17
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    I'm 100% sure that the dodge-cap for exp is 23. I'm 95% sure that the parry cap is 57. There was an old mathy thread (either here or on EJ) where someone tested their parries on a boss mob over the course of a lot of attacks at 56, recording that around .1% of the attacks were parried, and then did likewise at 57 and saw that there were none. I did a thoroughly less rigorous test of my own with both 55 56 and 57 expertise and saw something similar.

    Also, maybe it would be useful for some people to see all of the ratings laid out in one place?

    1% hit = ~32.8 hit rating
    1% dodge/parry reduction = ~32.8 expertise rating
    1 expertise = ~8.2 expertise rating
    1 defense = 4.9 defense rating
    Last edited by Sparan; 11-24-2008 at 02:19 PM.

  18. #18
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    Ok so now we got sorted def, exp, hit.
    But wath about our avoidence.
    parry,dodge, block. wath % should we have at max?


    And is it beter just to stack stam in the beginning after gaining 540 def?

    Maybe depends on style, but open for some idees here


    How mutch crit? how mutch AP/strenght is the next ones i guess.

    Tiger

  19. #19
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    Your D/P/B% is going to vary based on encounter and on tank class. Protection warriors should not have crazy dodge levels or you run the risk of not generating sufficient rage in spite of speccing Anger Management. Protection warriors also n eed a lot of strength; damage and block value. Druids and Paladins do want very high dodge levels. I'm not sure about Deathknights.

    You'll want to collect and save epic-grade gear (even, perhaps, some blues) that enhances each defensive stat respectively. Some bosses call for huge avoidance (dodge/parry) while others don't, in which case you can lower those in favor of additional blocking for rage generation (for protection warriors, at least).

    IMO, once you get 540 Def Cap, you'll want to stack stamina until you can survive encounters. Naxx-10 calls for ~25K unbuffed or thereabouts. After that, it all depends...

  20. #20
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    I have a question... How much hit and expertise does paladin need (percent wise) ? Do you actually need expertiese as a tank, since I though expertise is good for you when you hit stuff from behind.

    edit: nvm I found it
    Last edited by Södertäl; 02-10-2009 at 04:42 PM.

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