I believe you're correct, no extra threat, just quicker to full sunder. My glyphs are Sunder/Revenge atm, with Block to come at 80. The extra sundered mob every devastate is quite nice when AoE tanking.
Originally Posted by Glomgore
On the spec side, I have gone with 1/3 incite, 2/2 impale, kept FR, dumped puncture, kept all of Shield Spec, 2/2 imp revenge, and 5/5 cruelty. It's looking more and more like I may want to move those 2 out of imp revenge into making incite 3/3. The damage gains from revenge are not looking to outweigh the additional HS crits from incite, since I get an HS every revenge.
As someone above said, there's no complete right or wrong answer at this point. It depends on what you're tanking, and what your style is.
yes, according to Satrina's testing it is purely damage + 5% AP as threat:
New to these forums as far as posting, not so much reading, but I'd like to add one additional factor into this mix.
From my experience so far, MTing the 10man non heroic bosses, I feel that threat is not an issue at all (Now I know this may change, and hopefully it will considering I considered myself very advanced as far as my threat generation went compared to other tanks). With that being said, shouldn't we focus more on maximizing DPS with the obvious survivability? Now I know this may seem obvious considering we have a threat cycle (well priority) or skills to use, but perhaps speccing right now should be geared torward pulling good DPS? Just something else to think about.
that's exactly the point JPC, we're trying to find out which one maximizes our DPS now without taking away our survivability.
If all you are doing is raid tanking I do not see why you would need or do with out concussion blow and vigilance. Therefore you can have both focused rage, impale, and 4/5 cruelty. It is called having your cake and eating it too. If at some point you feel the dps'ers on your heels then you can go back and rethink vigilance.
So here is the spec I think might look best for straight up raid tanking, gives you both threat talents and avoidance/mitigation.
You still have one point you can adjust in warbringer if you so chose, but I find it rather nice and easier to use intead of intervene or intercept for all stances.
Also in this set up are the glyphs Major: Blocking, Heroic strike, Revenge Minor: Thunder clap, charge, Bloodrage. You may change out one of the minors with Battle if you are the one keeping up battle shout.
Side note: It would be awesome if they had a cool glyph for commanding shout. Here is hoping.
Just my thoughts as now and I am sure they will change as I work with different set ups to figure out what works best for me and my raid. There is no perfect spec for everyone we each have to figure out what works best for our play style and our raid thru testing even then it will change as we progress. If we fail to keep working on improving from day to day or week to week then we are nothing, always stay on your toes by thinking ahead and trying new things.
I'll preface this with the fact that I'm not much on theory crafting although I like to read up on it and try to apply some of the knowledge to my tanking.
From a lvl80 perspective of just doing 5 mans regular and heroic with my typical group of me tanking, 2 boomkin and a shaman healer. We sometimes pug a 5th, sometimes we just take us 4. Typical pull is me charging in and SS the mob I'm on, drop a TC and a demo then start the tab devastates so that I hit each mob with a single devastate before I go into my revenge/HS and SS rotation as I tab through the pack. The dps (I have vigilance on the highest threat AE boomkin) starts to AoE when they see the first TC and does not let up till the pack is dead. We loot and move on to the next. I've never encountered a rage issue whatsoever and I'm not convinced that with the way that rage generation is working that I'm ever going to have problems with it.
The only use that I've found for taking 3/3 FR is for doing my dailys as I find I'm more rage starved against those mobs than anything else, but its not worth losing the points in vigilance or cruelty and taking a hit on my AoE threat making these instances that much more difficult to control.
Also, I've not experienced an issue with single target threat on bosses in the heroics. I always have enough rage for my reactives and I still fit in plenty of HSs in between getting my SS/Rev./Devastates off.
Hi- I'm Ames, been reading for a while here and there. Thanks for the useful info. I've written a few guides myself, but that's neither here nor there. Decided to register and contribute for a change.
I'm currently using this spec:
12/5/54 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I lose AttT and Puncture. I gain full cruelty, full impale, etc, etc. I keep vigilance and shockwave. And full avoidance/mitigation talents. Warbringer compliments improved charge very nicely.
I mostly run heroics so this might end up getting moved around as I move into 10's. I'm miles ahead on threat(and they're doing 2500+ or more sometimes). My avoidance feels very solid as of late. So, threat wise, I don't really feel the loss of AttT. I've had full and i've had 0(now), and while some of my attacks do hit for less, I'm not feeling it as harshly as I could be.
Because of S&B procs, I use devastate alot less now. On pulls with AOE, my main target may never even reach 5 sunders before it dies. Focused rage still makes it cheap- but I rarely hit it twice per 'rotation' like I used to, so 3 talent points to make it cheaper aren't really needed. I also rarely find myself rage starved to the point that I can't devastate if I manage my heroic strikes.
It's not a perfect build I'm sure, but I'm liking it very much for an excellent combination of utility, mobility, and durability.
I must say, I don't really see why you guys are so concerned with TPS or DPS. I just started running naxx10 (have all heroic and emblem gear) and realized TPS or DPS is the least of my problems. Pretty much any naxx10 boss will give you unlimited rage. I mean you can HS every single hit, use every single CD and your rage bar won't even move.
I do about 4000-5000 TPS and 1500 DPS on a naxx10 boss and there is nothing in the talents that would significantly increase that. However avoindence is really the key to naxx fights. Sitting on 36k health buffed I'm not really in danger of getting killed with just couple of hits, but since wotlk fights are more complicated than BC and high on movement your healers don't get to use the 5sec rule and you'll see their mana drying out towards the end of the fight.
Patchwerk is a really good example of how avoidence in WoTLK is much more important then BC.
You can have some fun with optimized TPS. Going for speed runs and achievements we're starting to look into tricks of the trade on the tanks. Also joked about having tanks put Vigilance on each other which directly turns excess threat into extra mitigation/offtank aggro if taunt immunity is ever an issue again.
Many people also forget that their DPSers aren't in full 25 man purples yet. Their threat will scale up alot faster then ours will. Be ready for it.